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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed  (Read 9134 times)

BreenBB

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2021, 08:18:46 AM »

I agree with Megas, stop nerfing bat!

About Doom, what it makes overpowered is only skills, there was no subsystems skills in 091, which is very unbalanced in 095, especially stuff like Derelict Contingent, which can make 5-d moded junk unkillable and able to destroy several Onslaughts and Paragons in a row, nobody complains about that, but no, everybody aggro at my boi Doom and rest of High-Tech.

And if you dislike Doom, there already Doom nerfing mod, use it, and don't ruin it for rest of us please.
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Yunru

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2021, 08:20:20 AM »

And if you dislike Doom, there already Doom nerfing mod, use it, and don't ruin it for rest of us please.
By that very logic you should be fine with it being nerfed, since it'd be easy enough to make an Old Doom mod.

BreenBB

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2021, 08:30:23 AM »

Again why you hate Doom, and rest fun stuff? And again, why you want to force your own wishes in completely authoritarian, dictatorship manner? Good luck fighting REDACTED with pirate level junk ships.

About being overpowered, interesting, this by your opinion is perfectly balanced(TM)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXy8t-FhwF4
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 08:33:20 AM by BreenBB »
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SCC

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2021, 08:34:48 AM »

About Doom, what it makes overpowered is only skills
Indeed. Without skills, it's merely broken. Or rather, the mine strike is.
especially stuff like Derelict Contingent, which can make 5-d moded junk unkillable and able to destroy several Onslaughts and Paragons in a row, nobody complains about that
Are you sure?

Arcagnello

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2021, 08:36:13 AM »

About Doom, what it makes overpowered is only skills
Indeed. Without skills, it's merely broken. Or rather, the mine strike is.
especially stuff like Derelict Contingent, which can make 5-d moded junk unkillable and able to destroy several Onslaughts and Paragons in a row, nobody complains about that
Are you sure?

If there's one thing I learned from being a year and a half on this forum is that people are eventually going to complain about everything, figuring out what feedback is legitimate from the...uh...Ludd-Posting comes with experience and common sense ;D
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 08:42:21 AM by Arcagnello »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2021, 08:58:25 AM »

And if you dislike Doom, there already Doom nerfing mod, use it, and don't ruin it for rest of us please.
By that very logic you should be fine with it being nerfed, since it'd be easy enough to make an Old Doom mod.
This right here. The game should be well balanced, and people who like using broken/overpowered stuff that trivializes aspects of the game can download mods to satisfy their power trips. A game that needs mods to be balanced is a bad game. Mods are the way to deal with things that are not balanced.
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Megas

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2021, 09:11:00 AM »

Unskilled Mine Strike on Doom was unfair against frigates last release, but other than that, I disagree that is it so-called "broken" (which I assume it means excessively overpowered in this context).  If anything, it works great.  Powerful and mildly unfair at times, especially from a Star Fortress, but not over-the-top, and not without counters.

The new skills make Doom too strong, I do not disagree with that.  I would not mind changes to the new skills that enable super Doom, like Phase Mastery enabling zero-flux boost instead of doubling speed, and Systems Expertise thrown out and replaced by a different skill.
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Retry

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2021, 10:32:28 AM »

Nerfing overperforming Ship Z has the the same result as Buffing median performing(not underperforming) Ships A thru Y, the primary difference being that buffing Ships A thru Y takes far more effort to get the same effect, while introducing far more potential sources of error that may result in additional overperforming and underperforming ships.
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BreenBB

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2021, 01:37:02 PM »

If there's one thing I learned from being a year and a half on this forum is that people are eventually going to complain about everything, figuring out what feedback is legitimate from the...uh...Ludd-Posting comes with experience and common sense ;D

Yes I agree what people do here only complain about everything is overpowered )

Retry, why do you want to make all ships same? Just leave them be, all games have under-performing stuff for early game and over-performers for late game, its good, its called progression, the game itself is sandbox without any end goal, and I personally explore in order to get better and better stuff, if everything will be the same level of power there will not be any sense to seek specific good ships. I agree with Megas about Doom, maybe its strong, but it should be, otherwise it won't be useful at all, considering what phase ships in general very vulnerable and their role is being glass cannon, vulnerable but powerful.

From all you complains its look like what you want make all on same level of power, but I think it should be both bad and good ships, all games use this formula, every FPS game have simple pistol for early game, and more powerful weapons for mid and late game, and etc.

Its logical what pirate wrecks and Low Tech perform worse that High Tech, its stated in lore what Low-Tech is simply outdated stuff, like Onslaught which was made before shields were thing, and pirate ships are poorly maintained.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 01:41:10 PM by BreenBB »
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NightfallGemini

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2021, 02:24:04 PM »

Don't use it then. Why taking options from other players?
Some people enjoy optimizing gameplay. The existence of blatantly overpowered stuff ruins that aspect of the game.

this same discourse pops up in every gaming community (primarily GaaS/MMOs) and no one seems to recognize that the goalpost of "blatantly overpowered" just shifts to whatever the new meta is. the calls for nerfs start all over again until people either get disgruntled and dump the game because they feel like they're not being listened to or get bored because everything got 'perfectly balanced' into banality.
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Deshara

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2021, 02:28:07 PM »

yeah the best-balanced game I've ever seen was TF2, whose design ethos was not "make things balanced by bringing down whats overpowered in the current meta" but "make everything overpowered in their own way so u can build a meta out of anything" & it turns out that works!
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BreenBB

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2021, 02:57:03 PM »

Yeah that the point. "Perfect" balance often make things boring, main reason of all games is fun, it should be broken in some way to be interesting, some games are really fun because of broken balance, for example take deathmatch of Half-Life 1.

My main concern if what all off "OP" stuff get hit by nerfbat, everything will come out like NightfallGemini said, game just become plain and boring.

I'd like to see some Low Tech oriented skills, High Tech become more useful mostly because all skills mostly benefit High Tech. But i'm not fan of new skill system to be honest, its very limiting, and have somewhat questionable features.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 03:06:40 PM by BreenBB »
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Helldiver

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2021, 03:15:28 PM »

I don't want every ship to feel like piloting a Mule, I'd much rather make flying a Mule feel like flying a Hyperion.

I disagree with everything but especially with that. The last thing this game needs is for every ship to turn into some hyperactive super-ship.
If you want OP stuff you can get that with mods.

The base game should be reasonably balanced, using every parameter it can make use of (including DP).

yeah the best-balanced game I've ever seen was TF2, whose design ethos was not "make things balanced by bringing down whats overpowered in the current meta" but "make everything overpowered in their own way so u can build a meta out of anything" & it turns out that works!

TF2 is a competitive shooter with cartoon characters. Everything being overpowered there isn't an issue because the only thing that matters is how many heads you clicked with your crosshair at the end of the round.
Using that kind of "balance" in SS would result in every ship, regardless of design, behaving like the rarest and most powerful ship in the sector.

Its logical what pirate wrecks and Low Tech perform worse that High Tech, its stated in lore what Low-Tech is simply outdated stuff, like Onslaught which was made before shields were thing

That's the opposite of the design intent of tech levels in Starsector as written by the dev himself including in the very latest blog post. Tech levels are just alternate doctrines/design philosophies. A high-tech ship can be individually more powerful than a low-tech ship, but will pay that price elsewhere.

To quote : "The key thing is that high tech is not intended to be better than low tech, just a different way of doing things."
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Megas

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2021, 03:36:12 PM »

Quote
My main concern if what all off "OP" stuff get hit by nerfbat, everything will come out like NightfallGemini said, game just become plain and boring.
We got a taste of that in this release, especially with carriers.
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Arcagnello

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2021, 03:43:21 PM »

Quote
My main concern if what all off "OP" stuff get hit by nerfbat, everything will come out like NightfallGemini said, game just become plain and boring.
We got a taste of that in this release, especially with carriers.

Can't wait until the Tempest and other specific outlier cases get clobbered too, personally speaking. The forums are going to be more entertaining than usual for a few days...
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