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Author Topic: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed  (Read 9196 times)

Deshara

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i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« on: June 04, 2021, 07:42:44 PM »

the hyperion, omen, tempest, harbringer, medusa, apogee & doom (not comprehensive, plz dont tell me if I missed any or u think any of these dont belong) are pretty well-known to be OP and several(?) of them have been explicitly stated that they're going to be getting nerfed.
& im here to say... dont do that.
Dont nerf the OP ships. Buff the UP ships.
I don't want every ship to feel like piloting a Mule, I'd much rather make flying a Mule feel like flying a Hyperion. Give the Hound integrated targeting unit baseline, give Kites ECCM. Give the Drover baked-in expanded missile racks, give Brawlers integrated targeting unit.
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Phenir

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2021, 09:53:02 PM »

That's powercreep. If you only buff things, stuff will start getting silly. It's also much easier to nerf and test a few outliers than it is to buff every other ship up to the absurdity of the doom.
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SCC

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2021, 11:10:37 PM »

Medusa and Apogee aren't overpowered. Medusa is fine as it is. Apogee is slightly undercosted, but Fury is much more so.
Other than that, I support what Phenir said.

BreenBB

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2021, 12:10:55 AM »

I agree with Deshara, nerfing stuff is always worst option, considering what you need good ships to combat REDACTED in first place. Its quite annoying what almost every post here is about nerfing. Easier doesn't mean its better. And why everything must be same? All games have beginner level weak stuff, and endgame powerful stuff, if you make everything same, from pirate wreck to high tech ship it will kill any sense of progression. And I agree what I don't want what all ships become a mule with different look.

I really wish what Alex will made at some point REDACTED more active, so they become actual endgame enemy not optional challenge, and people will stop whining about OP stuff. Of course using Dooms against pirate junkfleets if overpowered, but its pretty logical. And what I also found quite annoying, almost in any post about nerfing people who writes them in very authoritarian manner to force their playstyle to be only one viable without taking into account what not all likes this idea.

And why everyone want to touch ships stats? Again, most off issues with under-performers comes with AI, it often can't utilize them properly, slow ships often refuse to vent on maxed flux when they are surrounded, and they suffer and take too much damage if they just immediately vented.

And skills too, in 95a they to be honest not very balanced, they actually benefit that "OP" ships more, more damage to energy weapons, etc, especially Helmanship is very bad, its flux bonus can't properly utilized which turn all ships without SO to be very slow and sluggish. In 95a just to get survivable fleet I completely moved to SO cruiser fleet.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 12:14:35 AM by BreenBB »
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SCC

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2021, 12:18:52 AM »

My issue with Doom wuth skills isn't that I can pwn pirate fleets with it. It's that I can pwn  everything in the game with it.

BreenBB

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2021, 12:32:11 AM »

Don't use it then. Why taking options from other players?
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2021, 12:39:22 AM »

Don't use it then. Why taking options from other players?
Some people enjoy optimizing gameplay. The existence of blatantly overpowered stuff ruins that aspect of the game.
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KDR_11k

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2021, 12:56:20 AM »

Buffing everything else just inflates the numbers and makes it more likely that some things get missed and new balance problems arise. AI War is a game that had too much buffing and at one point even a basic fighter had like 1 million HP and the few structures that didn't get buffed along with everything else would just get one-shotted by everything.
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Yunru

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2021, 01:01:22 AM »

Counterpoint: With variable deployment costs, if something is really overpowered for it's cost you can simply up the cost without losing the fun gameplay most of the time.

BreenBB

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2021, 01:03:18 AM »

Interesting what you suggest to nerf it, but in that way what it still remain useful? If you remove mines you remove it main distinct feature, without that there will be no sense to use that at all. And still, all phase ships are glass cannon, I think they should be powerful because they very vulnerable to damage, and Doom only one which can effectively combat fighters and ships with Omni shields.

Nerfing is always unfun. Just take for example Supreme Commander Forged Alliance Forever - how authors of it massacred my boi Scathis... They nerfed it to ground from vanilla, by reducing its radius, which basically remove from Cybran faction game-ender unit, and nobody ever build that, then they reworked it, but still, vanilla game Scathis is better. If you nerf everything to ground again, you just remove fun stuff, it will not make gameplay more diverse, you just replace one Meta with another, with frigates which destroys everything, including capitals and doritos.

If you want really good example of good balance and diverse gameplay look at game which clearly inspired combat in StarSector, especially Flux management idea - MechWarrior series. Almost everything is useful, you can make melee mech with SRMs or array of AC-5, you can make long range sniper, or LRM boat, and everything can find it use, not unlike StarSector where some options definitely worse than other.

And weapon balance overall is also better in MW, limited ammo for example, it works in MechWarrior, but in StarSector I never use such weapons, main reason what MechWarrior doesn't have any regenerative shields, also you can add ammo as much weight allow in MW, and its better in SS spend some OP from missiles on Flux stats or even hullmod instead of using very limited weapon, and you can always make sure what you have enoght ammo for entire battle. In SS ballistic, especially large ballistics often un-effective, only Mjolnir is overall good weapon, but flux inefficient, while in MW they are really great weapons.
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Draba

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2021, 04:40:38 AM »

That's powercreep. If you only buff things, stuff will start getting silly. It's also much easier to nerf and test a few outliers than it is to buff every other ship up to the absurdity of the doom.
Don't use it then. Why taking options from other players?
Some people enjoy optimizing gameplay. The existence of blatantly overpowered stuff ruins that aspect of the game.

Agreed with both posts, not much else I can add.
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Arcagnello

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2021, 04:52:24 AM »

That's powercreep. If you only buff things, stuff will start getting silly. It's also much easier to nerf and test a few outliers than it is to buff every other ship up to the absurdity of the doom.
Don't use it then. Why taking options from other players?
Some people enjoy optimizing gameplay. The existence of blatantly overpowered stuff ruins that aspect of the game.

Agreed with both posts, not much else I can add.

Agreeing on you agreeing with both posts and that nothing more of value can be added without writing an entire essay not even I have the willpower to write.
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Megas

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2021, 05:12:01 AM »

Seeing that unskilled ships are slow, clumsy, and weak, I rather see weaker ships buffed.  The gameplay is sluggish enough as it is, even if world speed is at 2f (instead of the default of 1f).

Big YES to power creep!  Power creep is good in the age of nerf and molasses.
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SCC

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2021, 05:40:21 AM »

Don't use it then. Why taking options from other players?
Because what is a challenge to most playstyles is a breeze for Doom, and what is a challenge to Doom is impossible for most playstyles. Then you either ignore one of those, or you have to spend more time creating similar content of different difficulty levels.

Megas

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Re: i dont think OP ships should be nerfed
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2021, 06:20:42 AM »

Interesting what you suggest to nerf it, but in that way what it still remain useful? If you remove mines you remove it main distinct feature, without that there will be no sense to use that at all. And still, all phase ships are glass cannon, I think they should be powerful because they very vulnerable to damage, and Doom only one which can effectively combat fighters and ships with Omni shields.
Phase ships should be strong because they were designed to punch as a class higher, and to be a bit unfair.  If they are no better than their size class, then they are overpriced.

Doom before it got Mine Strike was an overpriced punching bag that was easy to kill (except in one of the 0.65a releases when it had unlimited Salamanders and Fast Missile Racks, but Venture exploited that cheese best.)  Fast Missile Racks were useless for loadouts without missiles, and Interdiction Array did not reliably flameout targets (and Doom had to be decloaked to use I.Array, often within an enemy's shot range and take unavoidable hits).

Current Doom with combat skills is too strong.  Without the skills, Doom is a bit strong, but not too overpowered.
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