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Author Topic: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea  (Read 3212 times)

CanaldoVoid

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2021, 01:52:18 PM »

Instead post your own lashers somehow beating tesseracts and remnants, like actual enemies you'd find in the game instead of a fake scenario that is not part of the game.

How about a lowtech fleet that fills its smalls with weapons, which is the opening argument, as opposed to just Lashers, which no one has been arguing about in this discussion?

Here's a typical lowtech fleet fight for me against a Remnant fleet.  Unfortunately, I don't have enough officers for every ship, so the Lashers lack officers and thus perform worse than other ships in the fleet which have level 6 officers.  On the other hand, they've got reinforced bulkheads so its basically pocket change to restore them when they build up enough bad d-mods to warrant being fixed.

The ball is in your court to provide what a tuned long range high tech beam spam (Tachyon lances, graviton beams, etc) fleet will do in a similar situation.  Or perhaps explain why my victory was not a victory in this case?  Or are remnants not good enough and I need to show Tesseracts only?

This looks really good, though I did not get to see what happen in the battle at all.
I mean, if what carries the entire fleet is the weapons I've been mentioning then what's the point?

In other words, was it all about the railguns? Sabots?
Did you win BECAUSE of small weapons or IN SPITE OF the small weapons?
Does it prove that low tech and small weapons are effective? Or that building in 3 hullmods gives you enough leeway that you don't really have to consider builds anymore as you can equip everything you want and then there are points left over you might as well place something @ random.

In other words, if you took out the small weapons would you win anyway? Or would it get even better as you'd overload less quickly?

But thumbs up to you for showing something interesting.

Edit: To move things along, I feel like this guy goes into detail of what's wrong with them @ the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYOWITFSoe0
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 01:55:33 PM by CanaldoVoid »
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RustyCabbage

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2021, 02:40:49 PM »

Instead post your own lashers somehow beating tesseracts and remnants, like actual enemies you'd find in the game instead of a fake scenario that is not part of the game.

(That's a 5 tach + 4 sabot Radiant, FYI.)

I wouldn't claim to be able to beat Tesseracts or multi-Ordo fights with just Lashers, but I don't really know what the point of this exercise is anyways. Consider yourself humored though.

CanaldoVoid

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2021, 02:42:47 PM »

Instead post your own lashers somehow beating tesseracts and remnants, like actual enemies you'd find in the game instead of a fake scenario that is not part of the game.

(That's a 5 tach + 4 sabot Radiant, FYI.)

I wouldn't claim to be able to beat Tesseracts or multi-Ordo fights with just Lashers, but I don't really know what the point of this exercise is anyways. Consider yourself humored though.

Ok now I'm curious, how did this work?!
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Hiruma Kai

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2021, 02:46:55 PM »

This looks really good, though I did not get to see what happen in the battle at all.
I mean, if what carries the entire fleet is the weapons I've been mentioning then what's the point?

I'll point out you have provided less pictures and videos than I have in this thread.  I have not seen what happens in your fights either.  I don't have recording software, and generally am focused on flying my own ship too much to provide good overview of what every individual ship is doing.  AI tournaments are better for that kind of overall effectiveness comparison.  Simply because it also eliminates player piloting skill and tactics as variables.

Secondly, did you look at the damage breakdown?  Again, I note, the Lashers are unofficered, costing 24 DP out of 220 deployed (11%), while still dealing 10% of total damage the fleet dished out.  If small weapons were a negative, the ships which are lacking multiplicative skill bonuses such as 15% or 20% damage bonuses, -20% shield damage, bonus range and so forth would not be providing power in line with their cost.  I admit half of them get destroyed in this encounter, while they were up they dealt damage in line with their deployment costs (and one of the reasons I include them - they are effective).

One of them was also apparently a hero lasher, and dealt roughly 1/4th the damage of a 40 DP Onslaught (XIV) with a level 6 officer, packed with large and medium mounts.  As a side note, the (D) on the Onslaught is unreliable subsystems which isn't worth removing since it never hits peak performance time limits anyways - so it lets me save on supplies a little.

However, in the interests of testing, I suppose I could try to find a similar opponent and do a smalls, no smalls comparison.  I don't have a save prior to that fleet - that comes from a retired iron man run that got to point of farming Ordos.  Although again, if both are victorious, its not proving much either way.  Head to head comparisons of as strong as you can build fleets are going to be the best discriminator (with multiple fights to help deal with AI randomness).

However, my question to you is, why should I be doing the testing for you?  I personally don't mind things staying the way they are in terms of small not being 0 OP, so I don't really have much motivation to do the testing, when I already have personal experience I already trust.  It's your job to convince me my prior experience is wrong somehow.

So, what are your example fleets demonstrating your point?

Edit: Nice fleet Rusty. :)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 02:51:47 PM by Hiruma Kai »
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Arcagnello

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2021, 03:12:20 PM »

Instead post your own lashers somehow beating tesseracts and remnants, like actual enemies you'd find in the game instead of a fake scenario that is not part of the game.

How about a lowtech fleet that fills its smalls with weapons, which is the opening argument, as opposed to just Lashers, which no one has been arguing about in this discussion?

Here's a typical lowtech fleet fight for me against a Remnant fleet.  Unfortunately, I don't have enough officers for every ship, so the Lashers lack officers and thus perform worse than other ships in the fleet which have level 6 officers.  On the other hand, they've got reinforced bulkheads so its basically pocket change to restore them when they build up enough bad d-mods to warrant being fixed.

The ball is in your court to provide what a tuned long range high tech beam spam (Tachyon lances, graviton beams, etc) fleet will do in a similar situation.  Or perhaps explain why my victory was not a victory in this case?  Or are remnants not good enough and I need to show Tesseracts only?

This looks really good, though I did not get to see what happen in the battle at all.
I mean, if what carries the entire fleet is the weapons I've been mentioning then what's the point?

In other words, was it all about the railguns? Sabots?
Did you win BECAUSE of small weapons or IN SPITE OF the small weapons?
Does it prove that low tech and small weapons are effective? Or that building in 3 hullmods gives you enough leeway that you don't really have to consider builds anymore as you can equip everything you want and then there are points left over you might as well place something @ random.

In other words, if you took out the small weapons would you win anyway? Or would it get even better as you'd overload less quickly?

But thumbs up to you for showing something interesting.

Edit: To move things along, I feel like this guy goes into detail of what's wrong with them @ the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYOWITFSoe0

Would this entire endgame capable fleet work better for you? Pardon the self quote.
Spoiler
Just popping back in to say I've managed to beat endgame (not completely, I'm not even attempting a particular special encounter) using low tech only and some mods.

I'm going to bed right now, just know you're (probably, maybe)  gonna like the Shield Shunt XIV Onslaught, which is aptly named "Horseshoe Crab"  ;D



Edit: Good Morning! Here's the fleet!
Spoiler
[close]
There are mod-ships from High Tech Expansion (that's where the Aggressor, the Onslaught on a diet comes from), The Asteroid Ship pack (Big 50DP Chungus asteroid battlecarrier named pebble is from there) and Underworld (Venom-X, the 10DP bootleg Scarab) but they're all actually using vanilla weapons. In order:

Horseshoe Crab (Shield Shunt XIV Onslaught)
Spoiler
[close]
Hullmods on the ship because the list is too damn long to fit on the screen:
1) (integrated) Heavy Armor
2) (Integrated) Reinforced Bulkheads
3) (Integrated) Integrated Targeting Unit
4) Solar Shielding
5) Armored Weapon Mounts
6) Integrated Point Defence AI
7) Automated Repair Unit
8) Shield Shunt
9) Flux Distributor
10) Insulated Engine Ass(embly)
11) Advanced Turret Gyros (for the Mk.9 Autocannons and the Railguns that also double as Point Defence)
12) Expanded magazines (for the TPCs)
This thing is actually magical. It's got every single possible bonus either increasing armor, reducing damage taken (across armor and hull), boosting up Hullpoints, flux dissipation and damage done to the enemy (aside from Energy Weapon mastery for the two TPCs).
Why do I have 3600 flux generated by weapons when the ship only gets 1524 flux dissipation?
To make sure the thing fully uses all its flux dissipation to shoot weapons even if it's only using a portion of them, It also has an aggressive enough officer, enough armor, hull hitpoints and residual armor. This Onslaught has around 175 Residual armor spread across 30.000 hull points, and that's before we even count the -35% (or was it 45%?) hull and armor damage taken thanks to officer skills and 100% CR.
Officer skills (swear to all that Ludd loves that he was already named Ahmed when I got him)
Spoiler
[close]
The only oopsie I made in setting it up was making Damage Control Elite instead of Target Analysis. The one thing missing is Reinforced Flux Conduits (I already have Shield shunt boosting EMP resistance, it felt useless) and Blast Doors, but who cares about losing crew members anyway when you can do this under AI control:
Spoiler
[close]
Or this (story spoilers):
Spoiler
[close]
And also that, without a single care in the world (more spoilers)
Spoiler
[close]
You can also just send it into a sea of remnants and it will hold on for minutes while the rest of your fleet is busy elsewhere and is virtually unkillable by frigades unless they either got Reapers able to get thru the absurd point defence or enough PPT to kill it before they suffer critical malfunctions or end up getting crumped.

Salamander To The Knee & Renegade (Pebble-class Asteroid Battlecarrier)
This ship got rebalanced while I was nearing the end of the campaign, so some skills are not optimal for it, anyway:
Spoiler
[close]
Commander skills:
Spoiler
[close]
To quote myself, the Pebble is the already malformed offspring of a Paragon and a Legion that got abandoned at Umbra and got beaten up by pirates with a crowbar until it could be called one of their own. It's tanky, can carry 9 (13 if you really want to go full meme) Salamanders plus some good kinetics and can then follow up on fluxing out/immobilizing the target with bombers, in this case triple Khopesh. It works as well as you'd expect from a 50FP battlecarrier, tanking the world (story spoilers):
Spoiler
[close]
and then hitting the world back twice as hard (more story spoilers):
Spoiler
[close]


Chub B Gone & Ketomania (XIV Aggressor-class Artillery Battlecruiser)
Spoiler
[close]
Officer skills (they're quite suboptimal, I know)
Spoiler
[close]
This is quite the straighforward ship. It's an Onslaught trading most side facing weapons, armor and burn drive for improved mobility and Accellerated ammo feed, making it go around with a quickness and boosting all of its front facing weapons (aside from the TPCs) into one single target. It's quite great at buzzsawing singular ships while it's escorting either the Pebbles or the Onslaught. I don't have screenshots of this one doing work by itself but you've probably seen it in the combat screenshots above doing work while behind the other capitals

Venom-X Skirmish Frigade
Spoiler
[close]
Officer skills:
Spoiler
[close]
This bad boy did not change from midgame, it's fast , survivable and packs a punch when it fights at close range. I could've seen an alternative variant of this thing using Elite Point Defence, Elite Ranged Specialization double Heavy Machineguns, an Ion Cannon and a Light Assault gun but I really liked the added durability of this one so I kept it.


I more or less butchered the Doritos with 180FP without manually controlling any ship and only lost (and then recovered) some Venom-Xs and a Pebble because I was dumb and did double avoid orders on the Doritos at one point in the fight. Some battle screenshots that were not shown above:
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
End of combat:
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Combat Data:
Spoiler
[close]


There we go, I'm sorry for all the spoiler tages, as usual. Have a good one out there!

[close]
It would not be unfair to state that more than half the total damage comes from small and medium weapons. Even the Onslaught has 6 IPDAI, advanced turret gyros Railguns to absolutely ruin the day of anything with a shield in front of it. The mod asteroid battlecarriers also have light machineguns everywhere, with target analysis, elite point defence, ITU and gunnery impants, meaning they engage at around 600 units of range and can drive off everything with a shield in combination with HVDs and the Mk.9 autocannon. Agrressor is a HVD spam machine that gets all the damage bonuses plus systems expertise to make it oump out that glorious Accellerated AMmo Feed faster. The Venom Xs are basically the smallest superfrigate that can mount two medium weapons with temporal shell.

As for the video, let me put in a few comments as I watch it...
Painfully clickbait thumbnail -1
Says PD lasers are good while driving a Fury that's not using front shields. -1
Understands what AM blasters are good for +1
Comprehends the strenghts of Light Needler and Railgun +1
Understands what Sabots and Harpoons are for +1
Calls the single Reaper Launcher the best small missile weapon -1
Does not even get 3 minutes into the video and he's already asking for likes and subscriptions -1
Deploys Ion Beam appproriately +1
Disregards the fact the HVD has the highest damage per shot of every medium ballistic weapon -1
Understands you need more kinetic than HE +1
Does not cover weapons like the Heavy Autocannon, the Arbalest or the Heavy machinegun -1
Understands he's not perfect +3
Does not mention the fact Plasma is the best energy weapon to build hard flux in a prolonged engagement -1
Does not even recognize the existance of the High INtensity Laser, probably the best bang for your buck large energy weapon to eat through armor -1
Forgets to mention the Hephaestus has small ballistic weapon levels of damage per shot, making it actually subpar against enemies with high enough armor/residual armor, and neither does he mention the fact it's 480 flux per second for it too -1
Does not mention the high damage per shot of the Mk.9 autocannon making it one of the best weapons to also damage hull on heavily armored targets
Plays a Conquest with both broadsides and no point defence to speak of -1
Is knowledgeable about the Mjolnir +1
Has evidently not played enough 0.95 yet to know the Gauss is not the best kid in the block when it comes to kinetic weapons anymore -1
Does not even mention the Hellbore as the best armor tearing flaming plasma familiy car ballistic weapon launcher in the game -3
Is correct on the Hurricane +1
Does not seem to mention the massive impact officer skills have on missile weapons in 0.95, which skewers his judgement -1
Is almost correct on the Locust, exept for the fact it may aswell just not exist against ships with passable residual armor and that it has way worse actual damage against ships than any other large missile weapon, even against hull -1
Does not even mention both Hammer Barrage and Squalls -4
Is correct on Daggers, Longbows and Cobras +1
Somehow comes to the conclusion Flash Bombers are "nice" -1
Does not even mention Khopesh, Trident, Piranha, Thunders or Xyphos -4
Ah, I see where you got this "no small weapons" idea from I suggest you to hang around the forum and find out why that's wrong -2
He has not even mentioned the Rift Lance -1

Final Score: He has not played enough of the game yet to make any sort of comprehensible weapon tier list and call it a guide. You can probably find more information regarding weapon selection here on the forum in half the time it takes to watch his video. No offense, he seems fun, but don't take all he says as gospel, well don't take any opinionated theory as gospel...ever really and that includes me aswell.

Read enough of what everyone writes, combine it with your personal experience and you will eventually reach your own solid conclusions. "Small Weapons Bad" is not one of them.


Edit: That's a great low tech fleet by the way Hiruma Kai!
Now, swap those high tech bomber LPCs for low tech ones and Ludd will be proud  ;)







« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 03:21:09 PM by Arcagnello »
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CanaldoVoid

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2021, 03:35:07 PM »

Instead post your own lashers somehow beating tesseracts and remnants, like actual enemies you'd find in the game instead of a fake scenario that is not part of the game.

How about a lowtech fleet that fills its smalls with weapons, which is the opening argument, as opposed to just Lashers, which no one has been arguing about in this discussion?

Here's a typical lowtech fleet fight for me against a Remnant fleet.  Unfortunately, I don't have enough officers for every ship, so the Lashers lack officers and thus perform worse than other ships in the fleet which have level 6 officers.  On the other hand, they've got reinforced bulkheads so its basically pocket change to restore them when they build up enough bad d-mods to warrant being fixed.

The ball is in your court to provide what a tuned long range high tech beam spam (Tachyon lances, graviton beams, etc) fleet will do in a similar situation.  Or perhaps explain why my victory was not a victory in this case?  Or are remnants not good enough and I need to show Tesseracts only?

This looks really good, though I did not get to see what happen in the battle at all.
I mean, if what carries the entire fleet is the weapons I've been mentioning then what's the point?

In other words, was it all about the railguns? Sabots?
Did you win BECAUSE of small weapons or IN SPITE OF the small weapons?
Does it prove that low tech and small weapons are effective? Or that building in 3 hullmods gives you enough leeway that you don't really have to consider builds anymore as you can equip everything you want and then there are points left over you might as well place something @ random.

In other words, if you took out the small weapons would you win anyway? Or would it get even better as you'd overload less quickly?

But thumbs up to you for showing something interesting.

Edit: To move things along, I feel like this guy goes into detail of what's wrong with them @ the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYOWITFSoe0

Would this entire endgame capable fleet work better for you? Pardon the self quote.
Spoiler
Just popping back in to say I've managed to beat endgame (not completely, I'm not even attempting a particular special encounter) using low tech only and some mods.

I'm going to bed right now, just know you're (probably, maybe)  gonna like the Shield Shunt XIV Onslaught, which is aptly named "Horseshoe Crab"  ;D



Edit: Good Morning! Here's the fleet!
Spoiler
[close]
There are mod-ships from High Tech Expansion (that's where the Aggressor, the Onslaught on a diet comes from), The Asteroid Ship pack (Big 50DP Chungus asteroid battlecarrier named pebble is from there) and Underworld (Venom-X, the 10DP bootleg Scarab) but they're all actually using vanilla weapons. In order:

Horseshoe Crab (Shield Shunt XIV Onslaught)
Spoiler
[close]
Hullmods on the ship because the list is too damn long to fit on the screen:
1) (integrated) Heavy Armor
2) (Integrated) Reinforced Bulkheads
3) (Integrated) Integrated Targeting Unit
4) Solar Shielding
5) Armored Weapon Mounts
6) Integrated Point Defence AI
7) Automated Repair Unit
8) Shield Shunt
9) Flux Distributor
10) Insulated Engine Ass(embly)
11) Advanced Turret Gyros (for the Mk.9 Autocannons and the Railguns that also double as Point Defence)
12) Expanded magazines (for the TPCs)
This thing is actually magical. It's got every single possible bonus either increasing armor, reducing damage taken (across armor and hull), boosting up Hullpoints, flux dissipation and damage done to the enemy (aside from Energy Weapon mastery for the two TPCs).
Why do I have 3600 flux generated by weapons when the ship only gets 1524 flux dissipation?
To make sure the thing fully uses all its flux dissipation to shoot weapons even if it's only using a portion of them, It also has an aggressive enough officer, enough armor, hull hitpoints and residual armor. This Onslaught has around 175 Residual armor spread across 30.000 hull points, and that's before we even count the -35% (or was it 45%?) hull and armor damage taken thanks to officer skills and 100% CR.
Officer skills (swear to all that Ludd loves that he was already named Ahmed when I got him)
Spoiler
[close]
The only oopsie I made in setting it up was making Damage Control Elite instead of Target Analysis. The one thing missing is Reinforced Flux Conduits (I already have Shield shunt boosting EMP resistance, it felt useless) and Blast Doors, but who cares about losing crew members anyway when you can do this under AI control:
Spoiler
[close]
Or this (story spoilers):
Spoiler
[close]
And also that, without a single care in the world (more spoilers)
Spoiler
[close]
You can also just send it into a sea of remnants and it will hold on for minutes while the rest of your fleet is busy elsewhere and is virtually unkillable by frigades unless they either got Reapers able to get thru the absurd point defence or enough PPT to kill it before they suffer critical malfunctions or end up getting crumped.

Salamander To The Knee & Renegade (Pebble-class Asteroid Battlecarrier)
This ship got rebalanced while I was nearing the end of the campaign, so some skills are not optimal for it, anyway:
Spoiler
[close]
Commander skills:
Spoiler
[close]
To quote myself, the Pebble is the already malformed offspring of a Paragon and a Legion that got abandoned at Umbra and got beaten up by pirates with a crowbar until it could be called one of their own. It's tanky, can carry 9 (13 if you really want to go full meme) Salamanders plus some good kinetics and can then follow up on fluxing out/immobilizing the target with bombers, in this case triple Khopesh. It works as well as you'd expect from a 50FP battlecarrier, tanking the world (story spoilers):
Spoiler
[close]
and then hitting the world back twice as hard (more story spoilers):
Spoiler
[close]


Chub B Gone & Ketomania (XIV Aggressor-class Artillery Battlecruiser)
Spoiler
[close]
Officer skills (they're quite suboptimal, I know)
Spoiler
[close]
This is quite the straighforward ship. It's an Onslaught trading most side facing weapons, armor and burn drive for improved mobility and Accellerated ammo feed, making it go around with a quickness and boosting all of its front facing weapons (aside from the TPCs) into one single target. It's quite great at buzzsawing singular ships while it's escorting either the Pebbles or the Onslaught. I don't have screenshots of this one doing work by itself but you've probably seen it in the combat screenshots above doing work while behind the other capitals

Venom-X Skirmish Frigade
Spoiler
[close]
Officer skills:
Spoiler
[close]
This bad boy did not change from midgame, it's fast , survivable and packs a punch when it fights at close range. I could've seen an alternative variant of this thing using Elite Point Defence, Elite Ranged Specialization double Heavy Machineguns, an Ion Cannon and a Light Assault gun but I really liked the added durability of this one so I kept it.


I more or less butchered the Doritos with 180FP without manually controlling any ship and only lost (and then recovered) some Venom-Xs and a Pebble because I was dumb and did double avoid orders on the Doritos at one point in the fight. Some battle screenshots that were not shown above:
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
End of combat:
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Combat Data:
Spoiler
[close]


There we go, I'm sorry for all the spoiler tages, as usual. Have a good one out there!

[close]
It would not be unfair to state that more than half the total damage comes from small and medium weapons. Even the Onslaught has 6 IPDAI, advanced turret gyros Railguns to absolutely ruin the day of anything with a shield in front of it. The mod asteroid battlecarriers also have light machineguns everywhere, with target analysis, elite point defence, ITU and gunnery impants, meaning they engage at around 600 units of range and can drive off everything with a shield in combination with HVDs and the Mk.9 autocannon. Agrressor is a HVD spam machine that gets all the damage bonuses plus systems expertise to make it oump out that glorious Accellerated AMmo Feed faster. The Venom Xs are basically the smallest superfrigate that can mount two medium weapons with temporal shell.

As for the video, let me put in a few comments as I watch it...
Painfully clickbait thumbnail -1
Says PD lasers are good while driving a Fury that's not using front shields. -1
Understands what AM blasters are good for +1
Comprehends the strenghts of Light Needler and Railgun +1
Understands what Sabots and Harpoons are for +1
Calls the single Reaper Launcher the best small missile weapon -1
Does not even get 3 minutes into the video and he's already asking for likes and subscriptions -1
Deploys Ion Beam appproriately +1
Disregards the fact the HVD has the highest damage per shot of every medium ballistic weapon -1
Understands you need more kinetic than HE +1
Does not cover weapons like the Heavy Autocannon, the Arbalest or the Heavy machinegun -1
Understands he's not perfect +3
Does not mention the fact Plasma is the best energy weapon to build hard flux in a prolonged engagement -1
Does not even recognize the existance of the High INtensity Laser, probably the best bang for your buck large energy weapon to eat through armor -1
Forgets to mention the Hephaestus has small ballistic weapon levels of damage per shot, making it actually subpar against enemies with high enough armor/residual armor, and neither does he mention the fact it's 480 flux per second for it too -1
Does not mention the high damage per shot of the Mk.9 autocannon making it one of the best weapons to also damage hull on heavily armored targets
Plays a Conquest with both broadsides and no point defence to speak of -1
Is knowledgeable about the Mjolnir +1
Has evidently not played enough 0.95 yet to know the Gauss is not the best kid in the block when it comes to kinetic weapons anymore -1
Does not even mention the Hellbore as the best armor tearing flaming plasma familiy car ballistic weapon launcher in the game -3
Is correct on the Hurricane +1
Does not seem to mention the massive impact officer skills have on missile weapons in 0.95, which skewers his judgement -1
Is almost correct on the Locust, exept for the fact it may aswell just not exist against ships with passable residual armor and that it has way worse actual damage against ships than any other large missile weapon, even against hull -1
Does not even mention both Hammer Barrage and Squalls -4
Is correct on Daggers, Longbows and Cobras +1
Somehow comes to the conclusion Flash Bombers are "nice" -1
Does not even mention Khopesh, Trident, Piranha, Thunders or Xyphos -4
Ah, I see where you got this "no small weapons" idea from I suggest you to hang around the forum and find out why that's wrong -2
He has not even mentioned the Rift Lance -1

Final Score: He has not played enough of the game yet to make any sort of comprehensible weapon tier list and call it a guide. You can probably find more information regarding weapon selection here on the forum in half the time it takes to watch his video. No offense, he seems fun, but don't take all he says as gospel, well don't take any opinionated theory as gospel...ever really and that includes me aswell.

Read enough of what everyone writes, combine it with your personal experience and you will eventually reach your own solid conclusions. "Small Weapons Bad" is not one of them.


Edit: That's a great low tech fleet by the way Hiruma Kai!
Now, swap those high tech bomber LPCs for low tech ones and Ludd will be proud  ;)

No need, I've read plenty, in fact it would seem that a small bubble I didn't know existed seem to think otherwise on this forum.

That being said if that fleet just beat the crap out of the remnants head on then I won't nitpick fleet sizes or anything else, I'll concede to cabbage that he's probably right and that my idea of a fix, while I still believe would be better for most of the ships most people like to fly, it would probably create a broken imbalance in the lower tier of the game, it's not worth it to solve one issue while creating another just as bad.

That being said~
It's not unheard of for certain ships to have different OP costs for different weapons, like the Conquest.
Logged

Arcagnello

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2021, 03:52:03 PM »

You'll know you've read enough things on the forum when you realize you will never read enough things on the forum and that someone else in it will always know something more than you do at all times.

You can probably ask me for overall Overridden ship setup heresy, more or less how to properly set up every single Remnant ship for what you want them to do and how many overridden Glimmers it takes to break endgame entirely, but most of what I know about Low Tech probably pales in comparisons to people which normally play it above High tech like Thaago just to name one chap. You won't be able to call yourself a habitual forum dweller until Thaago suggests putting Harpoons on some of your ship setups. This is a reliable method, promise.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 04:02:03 PM by Arcagnello »
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Drazan

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2021, 04:01:27 PM »

You won't be able to call yourself a habitual forum dweller until Thaago suggests putting Haproons on some of your ship setups. This is a reliable method, promise.

On the Dorito tournament stream he was more exited about ships putting sabbots linked with ballistic/energy weapons. So maybe his fixation changes over time :D
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Arcagnello

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2021, 04:07:05 PM »

You won't be able to call yourself a habitual forum dweller until Thaago suggests putting Haproons on some of your ship setups. This is a reliable method, promise.

On the Dorito tournament stream he was more exited about ships putting sabbots linked with ballistic/energy weapons. So maybe his fixation changes over time :D

My bet is that he was blinded by the absolute glory that was Griphons blasting the Doritos away with Harpoons/Hurricanes to talk lucidly bout anything else  ;)
More things about the torunament, which I watched in its entirety but forgot to comment on it in the forum afterwards:
Conquest and Odissey Master Race.
That one time the Dorito did a double Onslaught kill with the Rift Lance was just orgasmic.
Point Defence Dorito is BEST dorito
Never underestimate the power of a distraction frigate
Why does nobody link missile weapons togheder
Shame nobody used Rocket Gryphons
Monitors are the best unofficered frigate in the game for the Dorito fights
Champion is great, the builds for it not entirely so
You can see how little low tech gets used without either Safety Overrides, Integrated Hullmods or Officers to make them come into their own

« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 04:11:22 PM by Arcagnello »
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Thaago

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2021, 04:12:09 PM »

Hahahaha well I wanted to see if anyone was using burst missile tricks! Considering the hardest part of omega fights is the first part before they burst and their are only 2 targets...

But seriously people, put missiles on your ships! You're killing me! :D

Tournament was really interesting! I was kind of shocked that the capitals that did best was really the double storm needler conquest. It makes sense in hindsight (massive kinetic firepower, the enemy rushed in close anyways so range is less important, maneuvering jets to keep the target in arc), but I would have thought they were too fragile without officers to stand up to omega weapons.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2021, 04:16:03 PM »

Hahahaha well I wanted to see if anyone was using burst missile tricks! Considering the hardest part of omega fights is the first part before they burst and their are only 2 targets...

But seriously people, put missiles on your ships! You're killing me! :D

Tournament was really interesting! I was kind of shocked that the capitals that did best was really the double storm needler conquest. It makes sense in hindsight (massive kinetic firepower, the enemy rushed in close anyways so range is less important, maneuvering jets to keep the target in arc), but I would have thought they were too fragile without officers to stand up to omega weapons.

I've found two tactics mostly work:
1)Have enough firepower and the mobility to use it and no drawback you have will matter. The more burst damage to overload the enemy with and then nuke it with strike damage the better.
2)Have enough tanking power with enough guaranteed hard flux damage behind it with ways to punish retreating targets and they won't be able to do anything to you

Anything inbetween will either be too squishy and die before scoring enough hits or suffer a slow painful grind against a set of ships with infinite CR and the best shields/mobility in the game. Any sufficiently competent fleet will likely win but the two ways I listed above tend to do so with minimal to no losses.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 04:17:37 PM by Arcagnello »
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RustyCabbage

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2021, 04:20:26 PM »

Instead post your own lashers somehow beating tesseracts and remnants, like actual enemies you'd find in the game instead of a fake scenario that is not part of the game.
Spoiler
[close]
(That's a 5 tach + 4 sabot Radiant, FYI.)

I wouldn't claim to be able to beat Tesseracts or multi-Ordo fights with just Lashers, but I don't really know what the point of this exercise is anyways. Consider yourself humored though.

Ok now I'm curious, how did this work?!

22 of these Lashers.

Yes, they're SO frigates, but it's a 2-1 DP disadvantage; I'm not a miracle worker. :p
If it was a 120-150 DP sub-Ordo, especially with a few fewer Brilliants and no Scintilla then non-SO Lashers still work even against a Radiant, though.

Hiruma Kai

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2021, 04:32:35 PM »

Yes, they're SO frigates, but it's a 2-1 DP disadvantage; I'm not a miracle worker. :p
If it was a 120-150 DP sub-Ordo, especially with a few fewer Brilliants and no Scintilla then non-SO Lashers still work even against a Radiant, though.

Hmm. 2646 shield damage per second with AFF up seems solid for a 4 DP frigate without an officer. :)

To say nothing of the 264 sabots (possibly more with officer skills?).
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Arcagnello

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2021, 04:39:43 PM »

I'm almost sure you could beat bigger ordos and possibly even the Doritos with 3-4 Officered Grypons spamming as many Harpoons and Hurricanes possible in addition to those Lashers. Optimally with ECCM and an officer with Elite Missile Spec, Elite Target Analysys and Systems Expertise. Bonus points if they also have Nav Package boosting Nav Rating up to 20% by themselves without needing Coordinated Manouvers. I'm pretty sure the ECCM'ed up harpoons delete the [Hyper Redacted] fighters aswell. A timid officer plus an HVD may help said Gryphons stay somewhat away from the enemy but that obviously won't work all that well against Doritos. Putting Heavy and Light Machineguns everywhere for shield damage and drive them away when Doritos are not getting distracted by the Lashers might work better.

They will do massive extra damage to bigger ships and a setup like that gives the Gryphons +800% limited missile ammo with half the reload time between salvos. It would also make the need of those light mortars redundant :)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 06:15:06 PM by Arcagnello »
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Morgan Rue

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2021, 06:42:29 PM »

CanaldoVoid, I think your doctrine is just really unusual and not used by most players. You kite hard with stacked beam weapons yes? This sort of style is going to be really effective against Low Tech ships, which are lacking in dissipation and will not be able to catch faster ships with longer range. This is probably part of why you feel the way you do. It's a cool doctrine though, and it's neat to see all the ways people play the game.

I usually fit a lot of LRPD Lasers or PD Lasers on my ships, as they are fairly flux efficient and are usually good to shoot at enemies in addition to shooting down fighters and missiles. LRPD Lasers can also be used to provide point defense for allied ships as well, which is quite helpful.

I usually won't fit stuff like Single or Dual Autocannons on ships, but this is more because their ranges do not match up with the larger weapon ranges rather than the weapons themselves being ineffective. I generally like Light Machine Guns a lot though, and personally prefer them to Vulcans because of their longer reach and ability to pressure shields extremely well at close ranges. I usually don't use much ballistic PD outside of Flak Cannons though. Light Mortars are notably extremely efficient HE weapons and can be very effective on a number of ships. Fitting a Hammerhead with two Light Mortars and two medium kinetic weapons can be quite effective.

I've not killed any real late game enemies recently, at least not with vanilla stuff, but there was that time I faced down a few small groups of Remnants with just Hounds and won without any losses. Lots of hull and armor damage though.
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