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Author Topic: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea  (Read 4328 times)

Arcagnello

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2021, 10:18:42 AM »

Two opinions enter, one opinion leaves!

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SCC

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2021, 10:29:29 AM »

1. Sacrificing mounts is specific to low-tech
My experience: Not really. Depending on the build, but it can happen to many ships. Scarab used to have its side mounts left open, until they were removed. Medusa rarely ever has a full PD completement, more often it has just 4 or 3 PD guns in the smalls. Apogee doesn't really need its smalls, and according to some people, not the mediums, either! Paragon can have most of its mounts filled (not the smalls though, lol), or it can sacrifice everything but 4 larges and 4 mediums to become a station smasher. For midline, Conquest is obvious and Eagle often gets its energy mediums downsized because of the focus on ballistics. And for low-tech ships that sometimes get mounts unfilled, Ons and Legion are also obvious (do you really need these smalls?), and until recently Ons was also downsized often, though HBI is supposed to remedy that. Dominator also sometimes drops its smalls, but it depends mostly on whether flaks get into the mediums or not. Low-tech isn't any more likely to drop mounts or undersize than other design types, though.

2. High-tech is good at kiting, beams are great.
My experience: beams are ok at bullying pirates, but beams on anything that isn't a Paragon or an Odyssey belongs in the trash. It takes impractical number of beams to overwhelm dissipation of bigger ships and other high tech ships, and especially the Remnants. High-tech ships with short ranged, hard flux weapons fare significantly better, than if they were to use beams. High-tech's advantage is the speed and shields, allowing them to get in, deal damage, then get out and vent, while other fast, allied ships come in to occupy the enemy's attention.
Ironically enough, it's midline that benefits the most from beams, because they can actually support it with hard flux at the range that beams have. Ion Beam and High Intensity Laser in particular are great for midline.

3. Frigates only really got more decent recently because they got some proper slots.
My experience: Hyperion has significantly changed, yes, from 2 mediums and 4 smalls to 3 mediums, it was accompanied by significant stat buffs: its flux capacity increased by a factor of two and a half (from 3300 to 8000) and dissipation was nearly doubled (from 280 to 500). And additional damage boosts from skills no longer affect frigates. And Wolfpack Tactics buffs frigates specifically... Another frigate that has been buffed in 0.95 is Scarab and is one of the better frigates now. Do you know what mounts it has? 5 small energy ones and 2 small synergy ones. Tempest has 2 mediums, but it was good in 0.9.1 and it's still good now.

4. Ballistics don't have long ranges
My experience: while it's true only few ballistic weapons have ranges matching or exceeding range of beams, they more than make up for that with their hard flux options outranging energy hard flux options. You don't have to have the most range in the game, you can just have more range than your enemy.

5. Energy Weapon Mastery and Heavy Blasters are situational
My experience: What? EWM is one of the better skills for high-tech, because its range limitations and range at which high-tech will fight at optimal performance is the same. For Paragon and Odyssey EWM might be the worse choice, but for every other high-tech ship? It wants to get in and blast the enemy with Ion Pulsers and Heavy Blasters. Even just ~+15% damage against all targets is comparable to Target Analysis's variable damage bonus to some targets. Heavy Blaster is viable for all non-capital high-tech ships, because with s-mods and Flux Regulations, you can afford to fire them, and with them you can take sabots instead of other missiles, so breaking through shields isn't an issue, either. And no, I don't use SO or phase ships (except to demonstrate how broken DC and phase ships respectively are in my videos), I have not used it once in 0.95 or 0.9.1.

6. Ballistic weapons are worse
My experience: I think the most consistent detail of all Medusa and Paragon loadouts was putting ballistics in their universal mounts. It's because of their greater flux efficiency, range and damage to shields.


In conclusion, what I have to ask is: are we even playing the same game? I am being serious. While I also have found low-tech to be worse this version than high-tech, there's like one specific thing in common and almost everything else diametrically different.

Hiruma Kai

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2021, 10:46:16 AM »

Needlers are the most efficient anti-shield weapon in the game and have high alpha bursts(other than sabots, but thats another story) and in turn have very small armor/hull penetration. They are still very good, just specialized.

I'm going to have to disagree Thaago.  Assuming we're looking at only efficiency (not range or burst), the most efficient anti-shield weapon honor goes to ballistic small PD.  Vulcans do 6.25 shield damage per flux.  Light Machine guns deal 16.4 shield damage per flux.  Dual light machine guns deal 16.64 shield damage per flux.

Light and heavy needers are a mere 2.5 shield damage per flux, and Storm needlers are 2.85.  Vulcans are over twice as efficient when in range.

This is why vulcans were an unholy terror back before minimum armor.  They won the shield flux war, they destroyed hull in seconds, and only if you have giant bricks of armor could you last even a little while.  5x Vulcan Lasher bursts to 5000 fragmentation damage per second with AFF.  That still eats through unskilled Onslaught armor in about 10 seconds worth of AFF time, and then finishes off hull 4 seconds later.

Now, Vulcans are merely really, really good once in range.

20 flux wasted is 20 flux wasted, then you add the OP wasted which you could have used to lower flux costs further with hardened shields, dissipation or stabilized shields and 20 turns out to be a lot higher, it's a waste 100% of the time.

Besides, like you mentioned, Starsector has fleet battles, not duels, the small PD "efficiency" is horribly ineficient since it 1: Can't protect other ships, 2: often shoots at low threat targets nonstop wasting way more flux than actual weapons and 3: more often than not the targets they end up shooting would have wasted less flux by hitting a shield.

1) Is only true some of the time.  In a crowded fight, its true you can't shoot left or right through your allies on the line, but often forward PD batteries on capitals will shoot down missiles aimed at retreating ships.  Similarly, a lasher on escort will shoot down salamanders against a Legion just fine by sitting behind it, or reapers from flanking frigates. 

I will admit fighter based and Paladin PD is superior in this regard, but it's a problem shared by all other non-missile weapons as well.  Do you not mount other weapons because they can't shoot through allied ships to focus fire on that flanking frigate?

2) That's true of all weapons.  Essentially all weapons miss.  Even beams can fire and not actually hit the target due to turning, or moving out of range as the beam extends - or in the case of Tachyon lances, because they are a burst beam effect. I've seen Gauss cannons and hellbores firing at frigates they cannot hit because they're too maneuverable and at long range.  I've seen bursts of Ion pulsars and needlers miss half their shots as the ship turns. I personally miss auto fired plasma cannon shots all the time when plasma burning on an Odyssey. Have you ever tried keeping track of total shots and misses, and damage dealt by each weapon type?  Accuracy and target selection affects them all, roughly equally for projectile weapons.  And beams sometimes can't even kill ships if they don't fire anything.

3) There's a big difference between hard and soft flux though.  Hard flux you have to drop shields.  Soft flux, you just stop firing as many weapons.  The spread accuracy of ballistic PD is one of the reasons why they are so ridiculously efficient compared to "actual" weapons. 

A harpoon deals 750 HE damage.  Say 1 in 10 vulcan shots hit it (which is generally an under estimate).  That means 3 seconds to shoot it down for 1 vulcan.  60 flux.  Compared to 375 shield damage.  Let's throw on hardened shields, a 0.6 shield efficient ship, and elite shield skill.  That drops the shield damage to 94.5.

You "take" 60 soft flux instead of 94.5 hard flux in the absolute best comparison case against harpoons.  If you happen to have IPDAI or an anti-missile skill, that drops to 40 soft flux.  And the vulcan shot efficiency goes way up the more missiles coming in at the same time.  A swarm of 10 harpoons against 6 forward vulcans on an Onslaught aren't getting through and the vulcans will have a better than 1 in 10 hit rate.

Plus, those 6 Vulcans double as offense when the Onslaught burn drives in to point blank range (at least on a player ship).  3000 fragmentation damage is still 750 shield damage.  Same amount from a single plasma cannon, but for a mere 120 flux/second instead of 825 flux/second.

If you're in a capital versus capital duel, piloting an Onslaught, and you dive in to point blank range, why wouldn't you want 6 vulcans in the smalls? Although I could see wanting dual light machine guns instead for triple plasma cannon equivalent shield damage for 1/16th the flux. You can turn off other less efficient weapons and still have capital tier shield punch.

As for high tech PD, know what's really efficient anti shield? reducing all damage to .4 flux or lower, high tech also doesn't need to care about PD 90% of the time, the difference is that they are better at it, besides, when things get dangerous a spray of locusts can often wipe out the screen, or a single doom laying mines, or a single onslaught with a careful officer and 3 devastator cannons taking out the brunt of missiles (not like it can handle the good guns like a conquest anyway) or a couple of modified destroyers with xyphos floating around them, or a couple of monitor escords drawing fire, or a couple of tempests, etc...

This is a list of alternatives, but there's no demonstration of exactly how superior and it what circumstances.  Do Doom mines invalidate 0.4 shields?  Does a spray of locusts make 3 devastator cannons pointless?  Fielding Xyphos make Tempests useless?  Just because there are multiple ways of handling a situation doesn't mean that a given solution doesn't work or needs to be buffed massively.  It's merely saying the game is rich enough to have multiple solutions.  Ships are different which is why it's interesting to deploy different strategies.  High tech has efficient shields.  Low tech has many ballistic mounts, and thus lead to two different solutions for the same problem.  Which I think is a good thing.

You get the idea, tl;dr of all the ways to handle bombers and missiles small PD is the worst of the worst, it doesn't matter how much damage it deals, if it costs more than zero it's a waste, even if it costs zero it's most likely a waste and many ships that don't intend to get right in the face of an enemy (to actually use the PD as an offensive weapon) will still end up not taking them.

That's a fair bit of hyperbole.  I mean clearly, if vulcans did 1 million damage for 20 flux and 4 OP, they'd be completely and utterly broken.  So at some point damage must matter.  As it is, with their current stats, they were arguably broken at some points in earlier versions of the game, such that weapons like them forced the introduction of an entirely new mechanic to take them down a peg.

Can you give us some kind of fleet wide effectiveness example (i.e. fleet A with small PD shot down X missiles and lost the fight, while fleet B removing the small PD ended up winning against identical missile heavy opposition) that we could run ourselves?

You have to understand, your play experience seems to be different from our play experience.  Simply saying X weapon is bad, which is counter to our personal play experience when we use them in our own setups, is not likely to convince us.

Edit: Retry apparently has an even better suggestion.

The trick to this game is in the shields, the most energy efficient weapons in the entire game are still chumps compared to shields, specially high tech shields, even if you have a 1 to 1 damage ratio which few weapons have it will most likely get reduced to .4 or even less of that value, the less you shoot the more "damage" you deal in comparisson, any ship that is not flux neutral, or less, is dead weight, and since low tech ships often have even less flux than high tech, while having more mounts, they end up in this weird spot in which they could carry 2x the guns of a high tech ship and end up carrying either half the guns, or a bunch of worthless guns that are all bark and no bite.

Wouldn't that analysis suggest you should be using vulcans and light machine guns over other weapons?  As noted earlier, vulcans deal 6.25 shield damage per 1 point of flux.  The absolute best shield in the game, 0.6*0.8*0.75*0.9 = 0.324 is still taking 2.025 shield damage per flux from an unskilled vulcan.  Except against a raised fortress shield, it is always a good flux trade to shoot vulcans into shields.  Even more so for light and dual light machine guns, which will do over 5 shield damage per flux.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 10:49:13 AM by Hiruma Kai »
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Thaago

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2021, 10:55:54 AM »

You're right Hiruma Kai, I'd forgotten about the machine gun lineup when thinking about efficiency - my mind was stuck on the longer ranged weapons!

I'm a big fan of vulcans on onslaughts and dominators (for all their other flaws) for the exact reasons you posted. They also make for decent anti-fighter weapons: not as good as some, but its just a cloud of damage for very little flux. I actually wonder a bit if I'm nerfing myself by taking target analysis instead of elite PD on these ships... sure target analysis' extra damage is very good, but 100 extra range is a qualitative change that might make up for it... thoughts for later testing I guess.
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CanaldoVoid

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2021, 11:05:55 AM »

I was going to respond with some huge point-by-point rebuttal of most of these points but I thought of a better idea.

OP, this thread has attracted a lot of attention from others within the community because of some (well, many) claims that are unorthodox.  Clearly you and I are talking over each other and neither of us is going to be convinced by the manner of words.

As such, I would like to invite you to a community PVP AI Tourney

Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to create a fleet composition with given rules and restrictions, and these fleets get thrust against each other in the field of battle until a victorious side emerges.

Most players outfit their ships more closely to what I describe (as such: far more fitting of various small slots onto warships).  If Star Sector combat works far more closely to what you're saying, then your fleet compositions should have no issue defeating their fleet compositions.

If it's your fleet compositions that perform consistently well over the currently-known "conventional" community member compositions, I'll have no choice but to accept that your points are correct, such as that smalls are near-useless and high-tech ships are the true long-range doctrine, and that your suggestion of reducing all small weapons to 0-2 OP is valid.

Should you accept this invitation, you'll have considerable sway as the guest of honour on what precisely the ruleset and various restrictions on building ships and fleets will be, such that you feel that the Tournament experience is a fair one without "cheese" or "meme" compositions.

So, will you accept?

And what would the point be? Fighting a ship made to counter another ship instead of making a ship that works against all the ships in a single player game?
A 4 tachyon paragon can't duel for crap unless it has a very specific timid officer trolling all over the map in a 1v1 (or 1v3) scenario, if I wanted to cheese to get fake results against ships you'd never encounter in the sector I'd probably abuse something like autopulse and/or heavy plasmas for a very specific scenario, instead of having a great centerpiece capital flagship capable of erasing anything below capital level in a single burst, and taking care of doom swarms (the fight before the Ziggurat, for example, was basically carried by the tachyon spam)

For a full meme tournament kind of shenanigans one could just abuse the broken Derelic contingent skill with meaingnless D mods on low tech ships instead and abuse not being able to take damage at all.

1. Sacrificing mounts is specific to low-tech
My experience: Not really. Depending on the build, but it can happen to many ships. Scarab used to have its side mounts left open, until they were removed. Medusa rarely ever has a full PD completement, more often it has just 4 or 3 PD guns in the smalls. Apogee doesn't really need its smalls, and according to some people, not the mediums, either! Paragon can have most of its mounts filled (not the smalls though, lol), or it can sacrifice everything but 4 larges and 4 mediums to become a station smasher. For midline, Conquest is obvious and Eagle often gets its energy mediums downsized because of the focus on ballistics. And for low-tech ships that sometimes get mounts unfilled, Ons and Legion are also obvious (do you really need these smalls?), and until recently Ons was also downsized often, though HBI is supposed to remedy that. Dominator also sometimes drops its smalls, but it depends mostly on whether flaks get into the mediums or not. Low-tech isn't any more likely to drop mounts or undersize than other design types, though.

2. High-tech is good at kiting, beams are great.
My experience: beams are ok at bullying pirates, but beams on anything that isn't a Paragon or an Odyssey belongs in the trash. It takes impractical number of beams to overwhelm dissipation of bigger ships and other high tech ships, and especially the Remnants. High-tech ships with short ranged, hard flux weapons fare significantly better, than if they were to use beams. High-tech's advantage is the speed and shields, allowing them to get in, deal damage, then get out and vent, while other fast, allied ships come in to occupy the enemy's attention.
Ironically enough, it's midline that benefits the most from beams, because they can actually support it with hard flux at the range that beams have. Ion Beam and High Intensity Laser in particular are great for midline.

3. Frigates only really got more decent recently because they got some proper slots.
My experience: Hyperion has significantly changed, yes, from 2 mediums and 4 smalls to 3 mediums, it was accompanied by significant stat buffs: its flux capacity increased by a factor of two and a half (from 3300 to 8000) and dissipation was nearly doubled (from 280 to 500). And additional damage boosts from skills no longer affect frigates. And Wolfpack Tactics buffs frigates specifically... Another frigate that has been buffed in 0.95 is Scarab and is one of the better frigates now. Do you know what mounts it has? 5 small energy ones and 2 small synergy ones. Tempest has 2 mediums, but it was good in 0.9.1 and it's still good now.

4. Ballistics don't have long ranges
My experience: while it's true only few ballistic weapons have ranges matching or exceeding range of beams, they more than make up for that with their hard flux options outranging energy hard flux options. You don't have to have the most range in the game, you can just have more range than your enemy.

5. Energy Weapon Mastery and Heavy Blasters are situational
My experience: What? EWM is one of the better skills for high-tech, because its range limitations and range at which high-tech will fight at optimal performance is the same. For Paragon and Odyssey EWM might be the worse choice, but for every other high-tech ship? It wants to get in and blast the enemy with Ion Pulsers and Heavy Blasters. Even just ~+15% damage against all targets is comparable to Target Analysis's variable damage bonus to some targets. Heavy Blaster is viable for all non-capital high-tech ships, because with s-mods and Flux Regulations, you can afford to fire them, and with them you can take sabots instead of other missiles, so breaking through shields isn't an issue, either. And no, I don't use SO or phase ships (except to demonstrate how broken DC and phase ships respectively are in my videos), I have not used it once in 0.95 or 0.9.1.

6. Ballistic weapons are worse
My experience: I think the most consistent detail of all Medusa and Paragon loadouts was putting ballistics in their universal mounts. It's because of their greater flux efficiency, range and damage to shields.


In conclusion, what I have to ask is: are we even playing the same game? I am being serious. While I also have found low-tech to be worse this version than high-tech, there's like one specific thing in common and almost everything else diametrically different.

1: Never said it was specific to low tech, in fact I'm pretty sure I said small mounts in general are worthless with very few exceptions, namely anti matter blasters (energy) and railguns, the rest more often than not hurts you more than the enemy, in fact one of the great things about annihilator rockets is not their damage, which is rather bad, but the fact that it's a constant barrage of rockets that makes the enemy "take" a lot more flux damage by activating all it's PD against harmless rockets than they would if they'd just let them hit the shield, that being said I never said that was an issue exclusive to low tech ships either, many high tech ships also ignore small mounts, like the examples you've given, the great difference is that low tech tends to have even more mounts, and even less flux, which makes the issue far worse for them than high tech.

Besides, high tech has some nasty options for their lower mount size, a plasma cannon for instance is probably worth as much as 3 different weapon mounts in one, in both flux and damage, so you can really focus the role of a ship if it can handle such a monster, heavy blasters are no different for smaller ships, a ton of firepower in a single mount and, like you said, it makes the small mounts irrelevant in many cases.

2: Yeah, beams are bad in 1v1 duel scenarios, too bad this never happens, in a real fight the bad designs of the AI ships firing PDs all over the place against random crap tend to overload themselves by themselves, once that happens the tachyons will just eat through the remaining shield and hull at once, hegemony is specially guilty of this, the only exception being remnants and, again, not because of some crappy PD systems, but because their shields and flux dissipation, and mobility are just too great, so you either need to burst down their shilds all at once, or pressure them with hard flux.

Which just so happens to be accomplished by your own radiant fielding 3 plasma cannons 2 cyclone reapers and 4 M sabot missiles, not even other radiants can handle that kind of burst.

3:You guys mention these few ships as if they were proof that "not much changed for frigates" yet forget to mention that people complaining about frigates are ONLY complaining about them, when was the last time anyone mentioned the devastating firepower of a Lasher in any real endgame conflicts? Answer: Never.
Hyperion has a massive shield reduction and some actual firepower (and the flux to use it) now.
The scarab is scary yes, and you know why it's scary? 3x Anti matter blasters, the ones I specifically mentioned to work on hunter/phase kind of ships, the little fucker can use it's special skill which is not much different from a phase as it can just dodge anything and get anywhere, and blast away at a bigger ship's engines while the flux regenerates, again, not because of some no damage small mounts, antimatter blasters deal more burst than most non torpedo weapons in the game.

4: By hard flux options you're talking about the railgun family and mjolnirs (for the one ship that can use them effectivelly), like I mentioned, and if you decide to equip them on any other low tech ships along with pretty much anything else even @ max flux dissipation be prepared to self destruct before the enemy even has to overload your own shields.

5: I said it's situational, you said it's good, where's the contradiction? I never said it wasn't good, a doom, or any phase ship will want to take it, in fact it's mandatory that they take it, if a player would fly something like a scarab themselves, for some reason, they'd want to take it as well, any hunter ships would want to take that mastery, but hunter ships themselves are niche and if you take them against the real endgame challenges you're probably going to spend a lot of time repairing and recovering ships over and over again, hell I even got *** that one paragon died against the 2 doritos.
Edit: Another additional issue this brings up: Officer caps, who in their right mind would waste officers on small ships when the numbers are so limited? Even if it would be great for them, they often fly officerless anyway

6: Medusa used to be good, now it's just a worse version of the new and newly buffed small HT ships, as for paragon, yeah, I do use 2 railguns on the M slots with the timid officer I was about to discard and it was surprisingly good, but for a paragon that doesn't retreat nonstop you're probably better off just using something cheaper to trick the AI into not venting and eventually overloading themselves, like ion or grav beams since you can fire them across the screen.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 11:26:06 AM by CanaldoVoid »
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CanaldoVoid

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2021, 11:14:33 AM »

Needlers are the most efficient anti-shield weapon in the game and have high alpha bursts(other than sabots, but thats another story) and in turn have very small armor/hull penetration. They are still very good, just specialized.

I'm going to have to disagree Thaago.  Assuming we're looking at only efficiency (not range or burst), the most efficient anti-shield weapon honor goes to ballistic small PD.  Vulcans do 6.25 shield damage per flux.  Light Machine guns deal 16.4 shield damage per flux.  Dual light machine guns deal 16.64 shield damage per flux.

Light and heavy needers are a mere 2.5 shield damage per flux, and Storm needlers are 2.85.  Vulcans are over twice as efficient when in range.

This is why vulcans were an unholy terror back before minimum armor.  They won the shield flux war, they destroyed hull in seconds, and only if you have giant bricks of armor could you last even a little while.  5x Vulcan Lasher bursts to 5000 fragmentation damage per second with AFF.  That still eats through unskilled Onslaught armor in about 10 seconds worth of AFF time, and then finishes off hull 4 seconds later.

Now, Vulcans are merely really, really good once in range.

20 flux wasted is 20 flux wasted, then you add the OP wasted which you could have used to lower flux costs further with hardened shields, dissipation or stabilized shields and 20 turns out to be a lot higher, it's a waste 100% of the time.

Besides, like you mentioned, Starsector has fleet battles, not duels, the small PD "efficiency" is horribly ineficient since it 1: Can't protect other ships, 2: often shoots at low threat targets nonstop wasting way more flux than actual weapons and 3: more often than not the targets they end up shooting would have wasted less flux by hitting a shield.

1) Is only true some of the time.  In a crowded fight, its true you can't shoot left or right through your allies on the line, but often forward PD batteries on capitals will shoot down missiles aimed at retreating ships.  Similarly, a lasher on escort will shoot down salamanders against a Legion just fine by sitting behind it, or reapers from flanking frigates. 

I will admit fighter based and Paladin PD is superior in this regard, but it's a problem shared by all other non-missile weapons as well.  Do you not mount other weapons because they can't shoot through allied ships to focus fire on that flanking frigate?

2) That's true of all weapons.  Essentially all weapons miss.  Even beams can fire and not actually hit the target due to turning, or moving out of range as the beam extends - or in the case of Tachyon lances, because they are a burst beam effect. I've seen Gauss cannons and hellbores firing at frigates they cannot hit because they're too maneuverable and at long range.  I've seen bursts of Ion pulsars and needlers miss half their shots as the ship turns. I personally miss auto fired plasma cannon shots all the time when plasma burning on an Odyssey. Have you ever tried keeping track of total shots and misses, and damage dealt by each weapon type?  Accuracy and target selection affects them all, roughly equally for projectile weapons.  And beams sometimes can't even kill ships if they don't fire anything.

3) There's a big difference between hard and soft flux though.  Hard flux you have to drop shields.  Soft flux, you just stop firing as many weapons.  The spread accuracy of ballistic PD is one of the reasons why they are so ridiculously efficient compared to "actual" weapons. 

A harpoon deals 750 HE damage.  Say 1 in 10 vulcan shots hit it (which is generally an under estimate).  That means 3 seconds to shoot it down for 1 vulcan.  60 flux.  Compared to 375 shield damage.  Let's throw on hardened shields, a 0.6 shield efficient ship, and elite shield skill.  That drops the shield damage to 94.5.

You "take" 60 soft flux instead of 94.5 hard flux in the absolute best comparison case against harpoons.  If you happen to have IPDAI or an anti-missile skill, that drops to 40 soft flux.  And the vulcan shot efficiency goes way up the more missiles coming in at the same time.  A swarm of 10 harpoons against 6 forward vulcans on an Onslaught aren't getting through and the vulcans will have a better than 1 in 10 hit rate.

Plus, those 6 Vulcans double as offense when the Onslaught burn drives in to point blank range (at least on a player ship).  3000 fragmentation damage is still 750 shield damage.  Same amount from a single plasma cannon, but for a mere 120 flux/second instead of 825 flux/second.

If you're in a capital versus capital duel, piloting an Onslaught, and you dive in to point blank range, why wouldn't you want 6 vulcans in the smalls? Although I could see wanting dual light machine guns instead for triple plasma cannon equivalent shield damage for 1/16th the flux. You can turn off other less efficient weapons and still have capital tier shield punch.

As for high tech PD, know what's really efficient anti shield? reducing all damage to .4 flux or lower, high tech also doesn't need to care about PD 90% of the time, the difference is that they are better at it, besides, when things get dangerous a spray of locusts can often wipe out the screen, or a single doom laying mines, or a single onslaught with a careful officer and 3 devastator cannons taking out the brunt of missiles (not like it can handle the good guns like a conquest anyway) or a couple of modified destroyers with xyphos floating around them, or a couple of monitor escords drawing fire, or a couple of tempests, etc...

This is a list of alternatives, but there's no demonstration of exactly how superior and it what circumstances.  Do Doom mines invalidate 0.4 shields?  Does a spray of locusts make 3 devastator cannons pointless?  Fielding Xyphos make Tempests useless?  Just because there are multiple ways of handling a situation doesn't mean that a given solution doesn't work or needs to be buffed massively.  It's merely saying the game is rich enough to have multiple solutions.  Ships are different which is why it's interesting to deploy different strategies.  High tech has efficient shields.  Low tech has many ballistic mounts, and thus lead to two different solutions for the same problem.  Which I think is a good thing.

You get the idea, tl;dr of all the ways to handle bombers and missiles small PD is the worst of the worst, it doesn't matter how much damage it deals, if it costs more than zero it's a waste, even if it costs zero it's most likely a waste and many ships that don't intend to get right in the face of an enemy (to actually use the PD as an offensive weapon) will still end up not taking them.

That's a fair bit of hyperbole.  I mean clearly, if vulcans did 1 million damage for 20 flux and 4 OP, they'd be completely and utterly broken.  So at some point damage must matter.  As it is, with their current stats, they were arguably broken at some points in earlier versions of the game, such that weapons like them forced the introduction of an entirely new mechanic to take them down a peg.

Can you give us some kind of fleet wide effectiveness example (i.e. fleet A with small PD shot down X missiles and lost the fight, while fleet B removing the small PD ended up winning against identical missile heavy opposition) that we could run ourselves?

You have to understand, your play experience seems to be different from our play experience.  Simply saying X weapon is bad, which is counter to our personal play experience when we use them in our own setups, is not likely to convince us.

Edit: Retry apparently has an even better suggestion.

The trick to this game is in the shields, the most energy efficient weapons in the entire game are still chumps compared to shields, specially high tech shields, even if you have a 1 to 1 damage ratio which few weapons have it will most likely get reduced to .4 or even less of that value, the less you shoot the more "damage" you deal in comparisson, any ship that is not flux neutral, or less, is dead weight, and since low tech ships often have even less flux than high tech, while having more mounts, they end up in this weird spot in which they could carry 2x the guns of a high tech ship and end up carrying either half the guns, or a bunch of worthless guns that are all bark and no bite.

Wouldn't that analysis suggest you should be using vulcans and light machine guns over other weapons?  As noted earlier, vulcans deal 6.25 shield damage per 1 point of flux.  The absolute best shield in the game, 0.6*0.8*0.75*0.9 = 0.324 is still taking 2.025 shield damage per flux from an unskilled vulcan.  Except against a raised fortress shield, it is always a good flux trade to shoot vulcans into shields.  Even more so for light and dual light machine guns, which will do over 5 shield damage per flux.

Your math can't be applied to a real scenario, in a real fight the enemy will be throwing more than just harpoons one at a time so you can disable them, in reality your PDs are all going to focus on the same targets, move around and spread shots wildly and hardly, if ever, turn off, even against targets doomed by your own xyphos, devastators, etc..

I mean, even the basic simulation onslaught shows this, a single locust, squall or annihilator pod will make all of it's bad PDs go crazy through the entire fight, never, ever turning off wasting a lot more than the best case scenario values, and a real fight has a lot more than those 3, there are harmless fighters, chaff, javelins, etc, loads of crap flying everywhere.

Another thing you've neglected is the actual cost of the weapon, you're doing the math in my kind of scenario, when PD costs zero, so it's a choice between taking a missile to the shield or shooting it down, which is what I'm trying to acomplish here, in a real scenario all of those over arching PDs that never stop firing in a real fight also cost OP which you could have used to further increase your flux cap, dissipation, or add another hullmod that further decreases your costs in some way, so the 20f you spend firing nonstop costs an extra tax in things you could not put in your own ship instead.

Here's something else to consider: How much flux is saved by firing a 200f/s ion beam on enemy ships nonstop and constantly turning off their big hitters?
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SCC

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2021, 11:28:42 AM »

1: Never said it was specific to low tech, in fact I'm pretty sure I said small mounts in general are worthless with very few exceptions
Mmm, yeah, sorry. I got mislead by the topic title.

2: Yeah, beams are bad in 1v1 duel scenarios, too bad this never happens
And when have I said I mean duel scenarios? I have found it impractical in regular combat.

4: By hard flux options you're talking about the railgun family and mjolnirs (for the one ship that can use them effectivelly)
And also every other ballistic weapon, because regardless of their damage type, they all deal hard flux. While it's unfortunate Shield Modulation's elite effect decreases HE damage, it doesn't matter too much because you shouldn't be firing HE weapons at shields anyway (and because AI will often fire them anyway, so you need to skew towards kinetic damage), because you have kinetic weapons for that, that deal double damage to shields. And even if the damage that some weapons deal is subpar, it beats effective 0 damage that beams deal, unless they are spammed.

5: I said it's situational, you said it's good, where's the contradiction? I never said it wasn't good, a doom, or any phase ship will want to take it
Or every other high-tech ship that isn't Paragon or Odyssey, in fact, making GI situational to Odyssey and Paragon.

but hunter ships themselves are niche and if you take them against the real endgame challenges you're probably going to spend a lot of time repairing and recovering ships over and over again, hell I even got *** that one paragon died against the 2 doritos.
For the player, phase ships and Hyperion are definitely good picks. Doom for obvious reasons, but even a Hyperion is good enough to be doing about as much damage to hull as a Radiant, and considering a Radiant can dump sabots and reapers on enemies almost non-stop, I'd say that's pretty good.

6: Medusa used to be good, now it's just a worse version of the new and newly buffed small HT ships, as for paragon, yeah, I do use 2 railguns on the M slots with the timid officer I was about to discard and it was surprisingly good, but for a paragon that doesn't retreat nonstop you're probably better off just using something cheaper to trick the AI into not venting and eventually overloading themselves, like ion or grav beams since you can fire them across the screen.
Medusa is still good, just not as good as Fury, bu- wait, what? Your put a timid officer in your Paragon? What the hell?

CanaldoVoid

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2021, 11:37:40 AM »

1: Never said it was specific to low tech, in fact I'm pretty sure I said small mounts in general are worthless with very few exceptions
Mmm, yeah, sorry. I got mislead by the topic title.

2: Yeah, beams are bad in 1v1 duel scenarios, too bad this never happens
And when have I said I mean duel scenarios? I have found it impractical in regular combat.

4: By hard flux options you're talking about the railgun family and mjolnirs (for the one ship that can use them effectivelly)
And also every other ballistic weapon, because regardless of their damage type, they all deal hard flux. While it's unfortunate Shield Modulation's elite effect decreases HE damage, it doesn't matter too much because you shouldn't be firing HE weapons at shields anyway (and because AI will often fire them anyway, so you need to skew towards kinetic damage), because you have kinetic weapons for that, that deal double damage to shields. And even if the damage that some weapons deal is subpar, it beats effective 0 damage that beams deal, unless they are spammed.

5: I said it's situational, you said it's good, where's the contradiction? I never said it wasn't good, a doom, or any phase ship will want to take it
Or every other high-tech ship that isn't Paragon or Odyssey, in fact, making GI situational to Odyssey and Paragon.

but hunter ships themselves are niche and if you take them against the real endgame challenges you're probably going to spend a lot of time repairing and recovering ships over and over again, hell I even got *** that one paragon died against the 2 doritos.
For the player, phase ships and Hyperion are definitely good picks. Doom for obvious reasons, but even a Hyperion is good enough to be doing about as much damage to hull as a Radiant, and considering a Radiant can dump sabots and reapers on enemies almost non-stop, I'd say that's pretty good.

6: Medusa used to be good, now it's just a worse version of the new and newly buffed small HT ships, as for paragon, yeah, I do use 2 railguns on the M slots with the timid officer I was about to discard and it was surprisingly good, but for a paragon that doesn't retreat nonstop you're probably better off just using something cheaper to trick the AI into not venting and eventually overloading themselves, like ion or grav beams since you can fire them across the screen.
Medusa is still good, just not as good as Fury, bu- wait, what? Your put a timid officer in your Paragon? What the hell?

Yeah, I got a level 7 one, was about to toss her off the airlock, then I noticed she had gunnery, shield elite, ranged mastery, etc..

So I decided to give it a try, unstalble injectors, 4 tachyon, 2 gauss, don't remember if I used some ion or gravitons as well.

The thing is: Timid stays out of the range of every other ship, while a paragon, even with the unstable injector has more range than any other ship in the game.

The result was a very, very annoying kiting flagship that never dies, in simulation it can take 1 paragon and 2 onslaughts at the same time with minimal damage, it just keeps going backwards forever until some onslaught gets too far behind, charges with F and gets instantly blown up by tachyon.

Really works as a flagship for a ranged fleet, just tell everyone to follow it and it will lead them all into great trollage, it's silly but it works, surprisingly.

Good escorts for it are dooms with F mastery and often outfitted with javelins and salamanders (just to *** the enemy off with mines and a bunch of crap to make them waste flux on PD), conquests (gauss side+mjolnir side), carriers, a couple of monitors as usual and any other long range ships you can find.
PS: I tried it without unstable injector, they just catch up to the trollagon and it gets destroyed very quickly.

PS: This is really niche, but paragons themselves are not, the number of ships that use a specific loadout isn't as relevant as the number of fleets that use said ships, most fleets will never even field a single ship from those lists, while nearly every fleet from every player in the game will always had a paragon, and more would have odysseys if they could find them.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 11:42:01 AM by CanaldoVoid »
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Retry

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2021, 11:44:10 AM »

And what would the point be? Fighting a ship made to counter another ship instead of making a ship that works against all the ships in a single player game?
A 4 tachyon paragon can't duel for crap unless it has a very specific timid officer trolling all over the map in a 1v1 (or 1v3) scenario, if I wanted to cheese to get fake results against ships you'd never encounter in the sector I'd probably abuse something like autopulse and/or heavy plasmas for a very specific scenario, instead of having a great centerpiece capital flagship capable of erasing anything below capital level in a single burst, and taking care of doom swarms (the fight before the Ziggurat, for example, was basically carried by the tachyon spam)

For a full meme tournament kind of shenanigans one could just abuse the broken Derelic contingent skill with meaingnless D mods on low tech ships instead and abuse not being able to take damage at all.
The point of an AI Fleet Tournament would be to prove once and for all that you're correct and your massive text walls of theories work.  After all, if what you said is true, it should be demonstrably provable through some fair fights.

Think of it this way: This thread is a suggestion.  This thread is your suggestion.  The purpose of a suggestion is to convince people in charge that the suggestion is a worthwhile implementation.  Thus far, this suggestion has failed to convince the vast majority of the playerbase with its words despite the hefty character counts of the original and followup posts, and from what I've known of Alex (the primary Star Sector developer) it's also very unlikely to convince the people in charge.  As such, the probability that this suggestion is actually adopted currently sits near zero.  One way to improve this is to prove that your underlying claims on game balance are correct by putting them to the test: through a competitive tourney where your theories are put against conventional wisdom.

To reiterate the terms of the Tourney, as the guest of honor it would be you who would have input on the rules, guidelines and restrictions for the Tourney.  You'd be able to create the parameters of the compositions and fights to your whim, and as such you can specifically forbid stuff like Derelict Contingent cheese from being used at all.

Oh, and it's a fleet tourney; not a 1v1.  No need to have a Tachyon Lance Paragon solo on the field of battle.  As the guest of honor, you would have the ability to decree at what Deployment Point size each fleet should be.

The offer is still available.  You can still accept a front-row spot in a tourney, and you will have control over the parameters of the tournament, and the chance to prove indisputably that your perspective is the correct one. (and by extension, your suggestion is a worthwhile one)

This is a yes or no question.  So what is it?  Yes, or no?
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CanaldoVoid

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2021, 11:58:01 AM »

And what would the point be? Fighting a ship made to counter another ship instead of making a ship that works against all the ships in a single player game?
A 4 tachyon paragon can't duel for crap unless it has a very specific timid officer trolling all over the map in a 1v1 (or 1v3) scenario, if I wanted to cheese to get fake results against ships you'd never encounter in the sector I'd probably abuse something like autopulse and/or heavy plasmas for a very specific scenario, instead of having a great centerpiece capital flagship capable of erasing anything below capital level in a single burst, and taking care of doom swarms (the fight before the Ziggurat, for example, was basically carried by the tachyon spam)

For a full meme tournament kind of shenanigans one could just abuse the broken Derelic contingent skill with meaingnless D mods on low tech ships instead and abuse not being able to take damage at all.
The point of an AI Fleet Tournament would be to prove once and for all that you're correct and your massive text walls of theories work.  After all, if what you said is true, it should be demonstrably provable through some fair fights.

Think of it this way: This thread is a suggestion.  This thread is your suggestion.  The purpose of a suggestion is to convince people in charge that the suggestion is a worthwhile implementation.  Thus far, this suggestion has failed to convince the vast majority of the playerbase with its words despite the hefty character counts of the original and followup posts, and from what I've known of Alex (the primary Star Sector developer) it's also very unlikely to convince the people in charge.  As such, the probability that this suggestion is actually adopted currently sits near zero.  One way to improve this is to prove that your underlying claims on game balance are correct by putting them to the test: through a competitive tourney where your theories are put against conventional wisdom.

To reiterate the terms of the Tourney, as the guest of honor it would be you who would have input on the rules, guidelines and restrictions for the Tourney.  You'd be able to create the parameters of the compositions and fights to your whim, and as such you can specifically forbid stuff like Derelict Contingent cheese from being used at all.

Oh, and it's a fleet tourney; not a 1v1.  No need to have a Tachyon Lance Paragon solo on the field of battle.  As the guest of honor, you would have the ability to decree at what Deployment Point size each fleet should be.

The offer is still available.  You can still accept a front-row spot in a tourney, and you will have control over the parameters of the tournament, and the chance to prove indisputably that your perspective is the correct one. (and by extension, your suggestion is a worthwhile one)

This is a yes or no question.  So what is it?  Yes, or no?

Instead post your own lashers somehow beating tesseracts and remnants, like actual enemies you'd find in the game instead of a fake scenario that is not part of the game.
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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2021, 12:06:57 PM »

It's a Yes or No question, I require a Yes or No response.

One word.  Not a paragraph, not a sentence.

Yes or no?

Which is it?

Yes?

Or No?
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CanaldoVoid

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2021, 12:13:11 PM »

Instead post your own lashers somehow beating tesseracts and remnants, like actual enemies you'd find in the game instead of a fake scenario that is not part of the game.
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Retry

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2021, 12:15:17 PM »

One word.  Not a paragraph, not a sentence.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2021, 12:16:30 PM »

Instead post your own lashers somehow beating tesseracts and remnants, like actual enemies you'd find in the game instead of a fake scenario that is not part of the game.

But is it a yes or is it a no?
One word.  Not a paragraph, not a sentence.

I really want to see Thunderdome. Balancedome?
Balancedome!
Two balancing opinions enter, one balancing fact leaves...
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 12:18:23 PM by Arcagnello »
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Ira

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Re: Possible buff to Low Tech Ships idea
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2021, 12:40:55 PM »

Instead post your own lashers somehow beating tesseracts and remnants, like actual enemies you'd find in the game instead of a fake scenario that is not part of the game.

He didnt make the initial statement. You want change based on what you experienced. There has not yet been a single soul that shares your point of view. He is giving you a chance to demonstrate and proove your point. In a setting where you can set the rules. If you dont take that chance your whole argument stands on your experiences alone, which, like i already said, nobody shares and is therefore irrelevant.
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