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Author Topic: replace "avoid" with "do not engage (yet) (unless told to)"  (Read 1111 times)

Deshara

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"Avoid" is unusable. I've never once used it after familiarizing myself with it after it got added to the game. The problem with Avoid as-is is two-fold;
problem #1: any ship so dangerous that you need to avoid it, your fleet is probably going to avoid anyway.
problem #2: any ship so dangerous that you need to avoid it, the enemy fleet is probably going to stick to.
So Avoid is useless. It is effectively just a retreat button that wastes CR by not having your ships actually leave the battle. The use-case for Avoid is when the enemy fleet has a lynch-pin ship that you're saving for after its escorts have been picked off, and it does not achieve that in any functional way because it effectively renders all of the ships escorting the Avoided ship invulnerable by sheer weight of their proximity to it -- which is the opposite of what you want Avoid to do to the Avoided ship's escorts.

So! Replace it with "do not engage". Your ships automatically pick enemies they think they can handle to engage, and when picking they simply do not pick the ship marked as such -- even if they normally would. Frigates & destroyers should already be doing this for cruisers & battleships, so what this mainly does is instructs your cruisers & battleships to focus the enemy's same-size ship's escorts before attempting to take the escortee on.
Of course, you have to actually kill the enemy fleet in order to win the battle & the goal of the command system is to reduce micromanaging not increase it, so we attach the (yet) onto it. Once there are no more DNE targets left, your fleet starts picking DNE targets to engage, prioritizing the weakest, which since the weakest is AFAIA a universal calculation (a kite & a falcon consider the same ships equally as threatening?) naturally turns the late stage of a wolf pack battle where you DNE'd the enemy's Onslaught & a Falcon until you cleared their frigate escorts into a dog-pile on the Falcon, and then a dog-pile on the Onslaught -- without needing any input from the player after DNE'ing them at the start of the battle.

Now, that leaves 2 use-cases where something similar to Avoid would be useful but you can't use Avoid for it; when you have an evenly matched fight that you don't want any help with, and when the enemy has something so inescapable that instead of just leaving it alone so it can run ur fleet down at its own discretion u would want to keep it busy as much as possible while ur fleet mops up the escort & gives u better chances in a dog-pile. To that end, we attach the (unless told to) onto it. If you DNE a target and then order one of your ships to attack that target it doesnt remove the DNE, it just clears that ship's list of engageable targets of all targets except for that one, and then tells it to go do whatever it would do if that ship was the only enemy left & there were no DNE order. If you have a fleet of unshielded Hounds & an Eagle & you DNE an enemy Medusa loaded down with Phase Lances & Ion Cannons & Atropos, your hounds should naturally avoid the Medusa bc its a huge threat to them while the Eagle runs it down. If you have a fleet of hounds & 1 vigilance with ion beam going against a fleet of murceries & 1 onslaught, DNE'ing the onslaught & ordering your vigilance on it should cause your vigilance to run screaming from it every time it turns about on it (causing the Onslaught to not be focusing on the rest of your fleet), and when the onlslaught doesn't turn about on the vigilance it should be poking it in the butt with its ion beam flaming it out (and against causing the Onslaught to not be focusing on the rest of your fleet), effectively shutting it down until the frigates are cleared enough for your fleet to dog-pile it.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: replace "avoid" with "do not engage (yet) (unless told to)"
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2021, 09:52:51 AM »

Avoid is definitely useful, particularly against ships like radiant. Your ships will absolutely not stay a safe distance away and will die randomly, and avoid prevents that. In addition, the natural consequence of using avoid is that your ships pick of any enemies not near the avoided enemy and then surround the avoided enemy. This works perfectly if you switch directly from avoid to eliminate as your ships will eliminate any flankers that would mess with the AI, and then they will surround and finally aggressively converge. I use this strategy regularly with success.

Could it be improved upon? Probably. But claiming it is unusable is serious hyperbole.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 11:33:40 AM by intrinsic_parity »
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Thaago

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Re: replace "avoid" with "do not engage (yet) (unless told to)"
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2021, 10:26:29 AM »

I would like a command called "Ignore" that is similar to what you propose, where my ships just completely ignore everything about the marked ship, but currently "Avoid" is extremely useful. To add to what intrinsic_parity is saying, if I put an avoid command on an enemy radiant I can still right click command my heavy units to attack it. So my light ships that will get popped all run away, my heavy units all move forwards, then once the firing lines are clear I remove the order/switch to eliminate. Works nicely to get the fleet to engage the way I want them to.
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Megas

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Re: replace "avoid" with "do not engage (yet) (unless told to)"
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2021, 10:40:41 AM »

Avoid is useful for avoiding that killer ship the above two brought up.  Not just Radiant, but also Paragon if my fleet is not that strong.  I have used it on enemy Onslaught before in previous releases (and not just as anti-fog-of-war only when Avoid was first featured).
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AcaMetis

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Re: replace "avoid" with "do not engage (yet) (unless told to)"
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2021, 10:54:10 AM »

I get good use out of Avoid during Derelict Mothership battles - set the mothership to Avoid, manually remove whatever modules have mining blasters, and when it's down to some toothless PD laser modules just leave it there rather than destroy it and give the enemy that much more DP with which to deploy actually threatening ships. At least I'm pretty sure that a station getting destroyed in battle doesn't take it's added DP with it, it gets replaced with whatever is waiting in the wings.

Cheesy? Eh, little bit, I guess. I think I was intending to file a bug report about that and never got around to it...
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: replace "avoid" with "do not engage (yet) (unless told to)"
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2021, 11:22:18 AM »

I think more generally, avoid is useful any time your ships are individually all too weak to fight a particular enemy 1v1, so you can use it avoid letting them get into dangerous 1v1s until your fleet is set up to engage together. It's generally good for trying to beat a small capital fleet with frigates/destroyers/light cruisers.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 01:18:36 PM by intrinsic_parity »
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KDR_11k

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Re: replace "avoid" with "do not engage (yet) (unless told to)"
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2021, 01:16:38 PM »

I would like a command called "Ignore" that is similar to what you propose, where my ships just completely ignore everything about the marked ship
AKA "that's a monitor"
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Thaago

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Re: replace "avoid" with "do not engage (yet) (unless told to)"
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2021, 01:23:13 PM »

I would like a command called "Ignore" that is similar to what you propose, where my ships just completely ignore everything about the marked ship
AKA "that's a monitor"

Hahaha yeah pretty much! Maybe a few other use cases too, but just things that are best completely ignored for now.
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Deshara

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Re: replace "avoid" with "do not engage (yet) (unless told to)"
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2021, 07:32:20 PM »

To add to what intrinsic_parity is saying, if I put an avoid command on an enemy radiant I can still right click command my heavy units to attack it.

... oh is that in the game now? I swear to god it wasnt before.
... OH NO IT IS.
Alright Alex, I'm two for two here, I am a double idiot
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Ad Astra

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Re: replace "avoid" with "do not engage (yet) (unless told to)"
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2021, 08:04:04 PM »

Yeah, generally speaking avoid is a way to have "a void" of your ships around a certain enemy :D see what I did there? Huh? HUH? Funny right?

Alright alright, yeah the use is mostly against targets you know some of your ships will immediately go "pop" should they approach, so while you deal with the rest of the fleet you keep the command over these problematic opponents, you clean the board and then finally launch an all out attack on the lone difficult one.

I like fighting the Domain derelicts while heavily outnumbered, experience bonus around 400% and I only field frigates, so ramparts are dangerous opponents that must be somewhat avoided if 3 or more of them group up, that's when you use the avoid command for example.
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Linnis

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Re: replace "avoid" with "do not engage (yet) (unless told to)"
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2021, 11:02:19 AM »

I think more generally, avoid is useful any time your ships are individually all too weak to fight a particular enemy 1v1, so you can use it avoid letting them get into dangerous 1v1s until your fleet is set up to engage together. It's generally good for trying to beat a small capital fleet with frigates/destroyers/light cruisers.

Also they are good options to place on phase frigates. Saves your ship's firepower on something they wont kill with any reasonable time anyways.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: replace "avoid" with "do not engage (yet) (unless told to)"
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2021, 11:36:01 AM »

I think more generally, avoid is useful any time your ships are individually all too weak to fight a particular enemy 1v1, so you can use it avoid letting them get into dangerous 1v1s until your fleet is set up to engage together. It's generally good for trying to beat a small capital fleet with frigates/destroyers/light cruisers.

Also they are good options to place on phase frigates. Saves your ship's firepower on something they wont kill with any reasonable time anyways.
Does this work? Phase frigates move so fast, I feel like trying to avoid them would be even more of a distraction and would cause your ships to position really weirdly. I guess I've never tried it.
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Deshara

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Re: replace "avoid" with "do not engage (yet) (unless told to)"
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2021, 11:42:56 AM »

I think more generally, avoid is useful any time your ships are individually all too weak to fight a particular enemy 1v1, so you can use it avoid letting them get into dangerous 1v1s until your fleet is set up to engage together. It's generally good for trying to beat a small capital fleet with frigates/destroyers/light cruisers.

Also they are good options to place on phase frigates. Saves your ship's firepower on something they wont kill with any reasonable time anyways.
Does this work? Phase frigates move so fast, I feel like trying to avoid them would be even more of a distraction and would cause your ships to position really weirdly. I guess I've never tried it.


this. unless its been changed, avoid forces your ships to flee from an enemy ship every time it gets near them, which means if u avoid a ship that ur ships cant get away from (IE phase ships) then they'll stop engaging the enemies you want them to fight in order to flee from the phase ship. hence my suggestion to change avoid to ignore
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: replace "avoid" with "do not engage (yet) (unless told to)"
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2021, 11:45:08 AM »

I mean ignoring a phase frigate would be even worse than trying to avoid it. It's a problem you have to deal with actively IMO.
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