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[Deshara]

The fleet in the save is clearly not focused on combat, but rather campaign speed, stealth and sensors.  To be honest, it looks like a reasonable fleet for smuggling or stealth missions.

you nailed it! Its a fleet built for smuggling marines into colonies, not for conquering chicomoztoc.
Idk if u noticed (or if I had done it by the time I made that save) but I've named the variant for all of my ships, "stealth" lol I'm building my fleet to, call in pirate invasion fleets against main faction colonies with 0 marines, slip through the warzone, help the fleet with the starbound defenses if need be (I put fighters on all my support vessels so I can have all my freighters & salvage rig help kill stations if my allied fleet doesnt manage it. its a sight to behold, a salvage rig attacking a starfortress lmfao) & do lightning strike raids against the planet then leaving & letting the pirates capture the colony.
And in the process I've pretty much confirmed that my issue is 1 part that my fleet isnt built for pure combat the way a lot of the AI fleets are (which im fine with, if I wanted my fleet to punch up I wouldnt be putting sensors & insulation on every ship lol) & 2 parts expectations. I've joined enough allied fleets in combat by now (sometimes even just with 1 kite to slip torpedoes into the backside of the enemy's most important capital and then leave) to get a view of how the game expects itself to be played with the changes to the meta from when I locked into my playstyle in 2017
& yeah the reason the guns on them suck is bc I havent found anything better. I have a mod that makes guns not spawn anywhere outside of friendly military markets & Im hostile with every faction so :shrug: not my fault I have a destroyer with 3 burst lasers. My playthrough is way harder than most ppl's
also, RE putting insulation on my frigates, I was just looking at that, I literally noticed the tooltip says only the biggest 5 ships matter like 20 minutes ago & have yet to confirm how much of a difference it makes -- bc even tho it says ONLY the biggest 5 should matter, pulling insulated engines off of my kites still seems to make a difference

[Hiruma Kai]

pulling insulated engines off of my kites still seems to make a difference

Loading the save, going to an Nortia, and pulling it off the Hedone and the Kite leaves profile at 324 for me (with sustained burn and transponder off). (300+36+24+24+24+24)*0.75 = 324.

Now, if you pull off the pirate handiworks as well, that will raise your profile as the sensor profile goes from 12 to 24 to 30.  But if your frigates are 24 profile or less, they shouldn't affect the 324 profile.  What if your sensor profile before and after removing insulated engines on the kite?  And what is kite's profile before and after?

Edit: I just realized, if you've been playing that game further, you may have changed your fleet composition, at which point it's possible the kite is one of the biggest 5 ships if you ditched destroyer tier ships for more frigates.

[Deshara]

oh, no, ur right, the kite's insulation doesnt make a difference. i must have been noticing the kite's sensors making a difference for the sensor strength & misremembered that as insulation affection profile. Okay that frees up a bunch of OP on my fleet since I havent lost any ships but have added an Eagle & a Shrike. Now I just have to mouse down to see what my top 5 ships are and realize that the new pirate buffalo I just got, because I am insane & need to get 1 of every buffalo, needs me to drop 2 story points on it so I can have my 4 must-have logistic mods on it lol why do i do this to myself

edit: I just pulled insulated engines off of every ship then putting it back on if it did affect affect my profile, and in the process freed a total of 9 OP across my entire fleet lol it never occured to me that every one of my 7 support ships counts as a destroyer so if I take it off of any of them then they become the biggest sensor profile in my fleet

so my current project in this game now is to pull every hullmod that isnt necessary for the stealth strike fleet setup or a ship's niche & just dump those points into capacitors, see what it does. No more bulkheads or hardened shields on my kites

[Stormy Fairweather]

Just wanna add that i also find the new ai, for player fleets anyway, to be so bad it literally feels like it is working against me. issue command to assault a strat point, and they will fan out around it too far to cap it and let themselves be picked off one by one. a cruiser/capital ship will run off chasing a lone frigate while the rest of the fleet is destroyed by the enemy heavys. they will drive into each other, push each other into the middle of the enemy pack, cut off ships i've ordered to retreat, a ship you tell to escort will park itself RIGHT in front of your big guns, or my personal favorite; position themselves perfectly to be in enemy range, and outside their own, and let themselves be shredded. hell, i've seen my doom ship phase back in on TOP of another of my ships and destroy it. sure, ships following orders imperfectly adds an element of realism, and tbh i actually like that as a concept, but in practice what i see are my ships going the OPPOSITE direction from what i told them to all the time. or shooting everything ELSE when told to eliminate one ship.

i love this game, i really do... but i am losing my mind trying to command a fleet that ignores orders, refuses to engage, and stumbles over itself. worst part is, the enemy fleets dont seem to have these problems at all. even when you issue no orders and leave your capital on auto you see this same behavior; and your fleet will be destroyed by smaller ones because your ships are equal parts stupid and coward. seems pretty apparent the enemy ai does not follow the same rules as the players... and perhaps fixing this issue would be as simple as making them use the same one.

there is a reason this stupid meme was at the top of the subreddit for more than a day.

[Sarissofoi]

Me fighting some pirates and using commands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZH2Cr2cD5s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX42Bu4XaZo

[Stormy Fairweather]

way to win a small battle against a weaker force that woulda gone the same way had you pushed nothing. sure showed me, and everyone else who plays REAL fights with multiple capitals and full DP usage how its done.

amazing how with few enough elements involved the ai doesnt overly screw up, why i only saw your ships drive into each other once. damned near a miracle that.

[Yunru]

Dude, you've a valid point that you're spoiling for yourself.
Calm down.

[Alex]

... seems pretty apparent the enemy ai does not follow the same rules as the players... and perhaps fixing this issue would be as simple as making them use the same one.

They follow the same rules and use the same AI.

[Stormy Fairweather]

... seems pretty apparent the enemy ai does not follow the same rules as the players... and perhaps fixing this issue would be as simple as making them use the same one.

They follow the same rules and use the same AI.

then i am truly baffled. i have run default ship loadouts in hands-off battles and watched my ships do all the stupid things i outlined above while the opposing fleet seemed far less incompetent. when i tried recording a battle to show for some reason my PC opted to record my desktop instead. not too sure what is up with that (almost never record things so am a noob on that end), but i will see if i can figure it out to add my own to this discussion.

as to buddy boy, he made a comment in another thread telling me i was basically playing wrong, which was what prompted my response here.

[Yunru]

... seems pretty apparent the enemy ai does not follow the same rules as the players... and perhaps fixing this issue would be as simple as making them use the same one.

They follow the same rules and use the same AI.

Is it possible there is an observable difference merely because a player might be fielder a few powerful ships vs. AI's normally full fleets of varying power?

[Sarissofoi]

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Full auto with zero commands.
Fleet utterly destroyed.
Maybe stop being offended by any single tiny thing and acknowledge that maybe you have no idea about some things and then listen and learn?
So far you only talk big but don't show anything note worthy.

I have some gripes with AI system and command system and its not perfect but you really sound like some kid who don't look for answers or solutions but for pretext to whine and moan.

[Alex]

Is it possible there is an observable difference merely because a player might be fielder a few powerful ships vs. AI's normally full fleets of varying power?

Numbers, loadouts (and especially weapon ranges relative to enemy ships; if one side is generally heavily outranged, it won't do well), officer personalities/skills, the fleet doctrines (the aggressiveness setting affects unofficered ships), and of course the orders given all affect this. Of note, the AI generally gives a Search & Destroy order relatively soon into the battle, upping the aggressiveness of the ships on their side. But it's the same AI, so this is most likely a question of being outdone in one of these aspects. Or, say, something like (not saying this is going on, but as an example) the AI ships having officers and the player's fleet not having any/many.

[Stormy Fairweather]

Sariss, i have WATCHED my ships go left when told to go right NUMEROUS times. and vice versa. i have seen EVERYTHING i outlined in my prior post. and based on the feedback i am not the only one. refusing to capture strat points when told to, flying past the ship they are told to attack, backing off and maintaining range PERFECTLY so the enemy can hit them without being able to shoot back until dead. etc etc etc. these are REAL *** issues experienced by a lot, of not all, players.

and 'lol learn 2 play' is not constructive. it doesnt matter how well you play WHEN YOUR SHIPS DONT FOLLOW YOUR COMMANDS. bully for you, yours did that time. they often do for me as well... but that doesnt invalidate the issue outlined in this thread, or my post. and your 'holier than thou' attitude does NOT make me inclined to listen to one word you have to say.

[Deshara]

Numbers, loadouts (and especially weapon ranges relative to enemy ships; if one side is generally heavily outranged, it won't do well), officer personalities/skills, the fleet doctrines (the aggressiveness setting affects unofficered ships), and of course the orders given all affect this.

you know, thinking about it, it occurs that a majority of these factors are A) new(?)ish(?), and B) not visibly evident. Off the top of my head it actually couldnt guess whether or not there is any way for me to know before or during a battle if the enemy fleet is full of officers or not. If an enemy ship outpaces your ship & it just cant close the gap, there is no way to tell that the problem is that the enemy ship is running away instead of that ur ship isnt trying to engage (I fixed this one with a mod that shows the travel direction on all ships so I can see at a glance if my ship is moving towards the enemy but the enemy is just moving away). Or that the enemy is using search & destroy commands to make their fleet more aggressive -- youd never know that unless the dev tells u. Or, that you can change the default stance of all your un-officered ships in the faction doctrine page before you actually have a faction -- I didn't know that until someone here told me.

refusing to capture strat points when told to, flying past the ship they are told to attack, backing off and maintaining range PERFECTLY so the enemy can hit them without being able to shoot back until dead. etc etc etc. these are REAL *** issues experienced by a lot, of not all, players.

some honest advice, coming from the person who started this thread; take a kite or something loaded down with torpedoes enough that it can help in a battle but can't drive the pace of the battle, find an allied fleet & fly with them for a while joining their battles, & basically just watch an AI vs an AI fight. Because if u watch allied fleets fight enemy fleets you'll notice that the AI has no trouble. Because it isn't trying to micromanage its fleet & expect the ship's AI to be able to respond to your commands in a timely manner while also fighting well at the same time. The game just isn't meant to be played like an RTS & your fleet isnt meant to plow through enemies at a fast pace (anymore). It isnt that you're playing badly, just that your expectations havent caught up yet to the direction that the game is going in -- or rather, the directions that it isnt going in anymore as much as it used to

[Stormy Fairweather]

truth, i like to watch more than micromanage. buddy boy's videos there are very different than my playstyle. i usually only issue commands to cap a strat point, avoid a big bad until the chaff is gone, to position my fleets before the battle starts in earnest, or to focus on a particular threat. i never even run out of command points.

i have a couple mods running that make my game harder, as i like it, but when you cant make your fleet respond i dont see what you can do.

here is an image from a fight i had earlier. my forces had captured the jammer as instructed off the bat... but then backed away and let the enemy take it, and refused to recap it for the entire fight after. i actually won this fight with my ships all over the map, the jammer unclaimed, and everyone STILL being told to retake it. i know i know, they moved in a capital ship which is cause for my ships to back off somewhat, but after it went down they still didnt move in to retake it.

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