Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 11

Author Topic: the #1 reason I don't play this game  (Read 17989 times)

DownTheDrain

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2021, 07:14:58 AM »

In the case of station fights its the opposite every one of them, even frigates, decide that they can 1v1 a module so they get up to its face, literraly, even my dominators with hellbore cannons get up to 0 range thus blocking eachother and getting into danger, instead of firing from a safer distance.

As someone that hadn't played SS for a long time this was the most surprising aspect to me.
Yes, the AI feels more cautious overall and speed trumps absolutely everything because every enemy that isn't a battleship will try to kite you. However, the behavior when facing stations is beyond ridiculous. I have no idea which part of the code forces the AI to literally hug the station, bumping both into it and into each other, while blocking the firing arcs of every larger ship behind them but it really, really needs to not do that.
Logged

Harmful Mechanic

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1340
  • On break.
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2021, 07:17:33 AM »

Slap the new never-retreat hidden hullmod on everything.

Now all ships are suicidally brave all the time. Fixed.
Logged

Drazan

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2021, 07:32:57 AM »

Why is anyone even arguing about station combat? Like what is AI supposed to do, kite the station which has 3x the range? No, the only option is to go in and shot all at once. If AI didn't do this you'd need 20 minutes to destroy a single orbital station.

No one wants them to kite a station, I just want them not to ram it. Belive it or not the fights would actually become shorter. How?

Beacuse this:
Spoiler

[close]
is more effective
than this:
Spoiler

[close]

Black: station, Blue: ships, Green: possible firing arcs. If it wasnt self explanatory.
Logged

DownTheDrain

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2021, 07:37:11 AM »

Why is anyone even arguing about station combat? Like what is AI supposed to do, kite the station which has 3x the range? No, the only option is to go in and shot all at once. If AI didn't do this you'd need 20 minutes to destroy a single orbital station.

No one wants them to kite a station, I just want them not to ram it. Belive it or not the fights would actually become shorter. How?

Beacuse this:
Spoiler

[close]
is more effective
than this:
Spoiler

[close]

Black: station, Blue: ships, Green: possible firing arcs. If it wasnt self explanatory.

Damn you, I was just about to try and draw something similar but I wanted the ships to make adorable "pew pew" sounds.
Oh well, guess your version is a lot more clear and to the point.
Logged

Drazan

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2021, 07:38:27 AM »

Slap the new never-retreat hidden hullmod on everything.

Now all ships are suicidally brave all the time. Fixed.

No. It would not fix it. Perhaps it would be better for a few people but definitely not a fix. Ships shall percive better what the enemy ships are cappable of based on weapons and flux levels.
Also they should follow orders more strickly. Before someone says that reckless officers do follow them. No. They dont. All they do is that they more often go after a lone frigate and chase it until the end of the battle bassically contributing nothing.
Logged

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2993
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2021, 07:53:42 AM »

No one wants them to kite a station, I just want them not to ram it. Belive it or not the fights would actually become shorter. How?

Beacuse this:
Spoiler

[close]
is more effective
than this:
Spoiler

[close]

Black: station, Blue: ships, Green: possible firing arcs. If it wasnt self explanatory.
I understand that but it goes both ways. In scenario 2 the station can freely keep firing at a single target, where in scenario 1 tanks and faster smaller ships can distract it while glass cannons shoot away. This is why I always put eliminate orders for ships that I know can take the punishment, while the rest gets engage orders. Seems to work fairly well for 60 or so station battles I've probably had in the last year or so. The ONLY ship that goes bananas against stations and immediately dies is Fury, I don't know why it wants to hug it so hard, but I haven't seen that behaviour in other ships.
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

DownTheDrain

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2021, 08:02:04 AM »

...where in scenario 1 tanks and faster smaller ships can distract it while glass cannons shoot away...

This is not my experience at all.
In my playthroughs so far it's usually the fastest high tech ships, which aren't particularly tanky, that bump into each other in front of the station like they're trying to get to the last XBox on Black Friday. The rest of my fleet, the slower and considerably tankier part, sits behind them and has nothing to shoot at after I'm done cleaning out the defending ships.

It's not a major issue, it doesn't really lose me any fights or costs me any irreplaceable ships, but it looks and feels tremendously stupid.
Logged

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2021, 08:29:18 AM »

In the case of station fights its the opposite every one of them, even frigates, decide that they can 1v1 a module so they get up to its face, literraly, even my dominators with hellbore cannons get up to 0 range thus blocking eachother and getting into danger, instead of firing from a safer distance.

As someone that hadn't played SS for a long time this was the most surprising aspect to me.
Yes, the AI feels more cautious overall and speed trumps absolutely everything because every enemy that isn't a battleship will try to kite you. However, the behavior when facing stations is beyond ridiculous. I have no idea which part of the code forces the AI to literally hug the station, bumping both into it and into each other, while blocking the firing arcs of every larger ship behind them but it really, really needs to not do that.

A less known fact: station modules are classified as frigates
Logged


Since all my mods have poor reputation, I deem my efforts unworthy thus no more updates will be made.

Drazan

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2021, 08:30:04 AM »

I understand that but it goes both ways. In scenario 2 the station can freely keep firing at a single target, where in scenario 1 tanks and faster smaller ships can distract it while glass cannons shoot away. This is why I always put eliminate orders for ships that I know can take the punishment, while the rest gets engage orders. Seems to work fairly well for 60 or so station battles I've probably had in the last year or so. The ONLY ship that goes bananas against stations and immediately dies is Fury, I don't know why it wants to hug it so hard, but I haven't seen that behaviour in other ships.

Im terribly sorry, but I just cant belive that you are writing this seriusly. Like how biased you have to be to belive this? If no ship is hugging the station, then if the station is firing at a single one that can get behiond the others really quickly and efficently.
Please tell me you are just pretending, and playing devils advocate and not really beliving what you are saying.
Logged

Deshara

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1578
  • Suggestion Writer
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2021, 08:36:43 AM »

Why is anyone even arguing about station combat? Like what is AI supposed to do, kite the station which has 3x the range? No, the only option is to go in and shot all at once. If AI didn't do this you'd need 20 minutes to destroy a single orbital station.

I think ppl's specific problem here is that the AI doesn't handle spacing themselves out to mob a single target well. They get in eachother's way. It doesn't come up so often with regular ship combat bc most ships dont get hit by the size/number of ships they warrant but it does come up when u build a fleet around Wolf Pack Tactics and pilot a pair of strike frigates against a critical target you have enough combined firepower to smash if it werent for your scared wingman hiding in your shadow (& making u incapable of killing the target)
also kiting the station at 3x range their range but in the station's range getting attritioned to death by siege fire while one of my ships dives in to firing range & gets focused by every station module is exactly what my fleet does. I get that they're not supposed to be easy but I'm p sure I've capped out my fleets multiple times since 0.8 and I've never been able to fight a station without having to just quit to main menu, load save & go do something else instead bc the AI just doesn't handle it right. In fact, I've rescued an allied station from an invasion fleet multiple times yesterday just by joining it with a single kite and sitting behind the station bc the autoresolve knows that the station should be able to get killed by a capped out fleet of entirely onslaughts but when the game has to factor in the AI sitting in the station's standoff range & eating free fire while doing nothing the station wins every time

I mean the flipside of this is AI taking risks and going in and then you'd get this exact same thread but with the opposite problem.
...
Before anyone says "hey can't we just have a middle ground?", I assure you that it's impossible to achieve that in a game which has sooooo many different factors in combat. One fight the AI plays like a coward, the other it's going nuts. Trying to "fix" this by making the AI just overall more aggressive won't really solve anything.

The problem here is that, if the fleet couldn't handle the fight, the player probably wouldn't have fought it. A game where every fight becomes unwinnable bc ur fleet doesnt trust that you picked a fight that they can win (which is a test of skill for the player on the campaign level of gameplay, keep in mind) is infinitely less fun than a game where your fleet trusts that you picked a fight that they can win & give their all and if your AI can't carry the fight on their own they give you the oppertunity to make the difference with your flagship ("being the x-factor"). Does that make sense? Sure you're gonna have problems in either direction but not all problems are made the same; think of which would be worse for a Call of Duty game, sometimes when you pull the trigger on a gun you miss your shots bc u werent aiming well enough, or sometimes when you pull the trigger your gun just doesn't shoot. They aren't the same, the former is the core skill-check of an FPS & the latter makes nobody play that FPS

Picture how famous Starcraft would be if every time a player selects 200 marines & orders them to attack a battlecruiser, every marine individually goes "oh no, Im not strong enough to 1v1 that battlecruiser, I better stay out of my range :/" and then runs & stands in the battlecruiser's range & you lose 200 marines who could have insta'd the BC if they all attacked it once without doing a point of damage. Nobody would have played that game, it wouldn't be the worldwide sport of player skill that it is bc the game would fundamentally undermine a player's ability to express their skill by second guessing them inappropriately (in a way that, as I pointed out in my OP, doing so in a military setting would get you executed for dereliction of duty in the face of the enemy)
& you can say, "oh, but thats starcraft thats a different game it doesnt have to do calculations about whether it can take a fight" except THAT IT DOES. Theres an AI in SC, and it makes those decisions all the time! The thing is,
THAT AI IS TURNED OFF FOR THE PLAYER'S UNITS


and that's the core of the problem for me. I get why the AI needed to have an overhaul for self preservation; AI fleets that dont have the capacity for human reasoning about fleet comps & circumstances getting engaged into battles it cant know it cant handle suiciding themselves against an enemy's shields when outmatched isn't great when the game has a big wide overworld that the AI is supposed to be fulfilling roles on, it doesn't make sense. BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT, I'm making the call about whether or not we can take a fight when I hit the "engage the enemy fleet" button, not the AI, so my fleet should respect that & give me the opportunity to be proven right. If they do & we lose then at least its my fault for making a bad call, and not their fault for refusing to engage. In the former I can continue playing the game safe in the knowledge that the consequences I'm facing are diegetically appropriate -- my character *** up. But in the latter, what do you do? The losses you suffered when half your fleet blew up from running out of CR having not fired or taken a shot & the other half of your fleet blew up from not getting backup arent your fault, so you either load the save & retry the fight over and over and over and over and over again for hour after hour of wasted life, or I guess you uninstall & wait to see if its ever gonna get fixed and when it hasnt 4 years later you kinda just make a conscious decision to forget that the game exists anymore like its a online-only game that had its servers shut down

TLDR; as-is the only way I could think to fix the game shy of just overhauling the AI, again, would be to make it so that intercepting an enemy fleet in the campaign map & then picking "engage the enemy fleet" button automatically puts an eliminate order on every enemy ship -- although even that wouldn't fix the problem entirely bc ships "stick" to eliminate orders once they're assigned to one so if an enemy kite retreats back into its fleet the ship assigned to it will get killed chasing it unless you remove that eliminate order (just happened to me in the game). It's funny how in attempting to reduce how much you have to micromanage your fleet to prevent suicides, we now have to micromanage our fleet to get them to do anything, ON TOP OF having to micromanage the fleet to prevent suicides. I really miss pre-0.8. At this point the only reason I'm continuing to play the game is so that this time when I put it down, I'll be satisfied enough with my final impression of it that I won't pick it up ever again unless that release has the words "OVERHAULED AI" in big flashing letters. Effectively I am processing grief for a game that died 4 years ago & I just haven't come to terms with it yet; I wouldn't be so upset about it if I hadn't loved it so much
Logged
Quote from: Deshara
I cant be blamed for what I said 5 minutes ago. I was a different person back then

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 24128
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2021, 08:40:37 AM »

I appreciate the feedback, and especially if there's a vanilla scenario that showcases this easily, I'd love to have a look and see if there's perhaps a bug there that's messing it up. That's actually entirely possible. I'll also do some investigation on my own. I *am* curious how much this is a question of expectations; in my playtesting I haven't seen this problem and don't actually use eliminate very often, and things just... go fine? So, yeah, possible that it's an issue that it hasn't come up for me, or that it's something else, or... well, again, I'd love to see a vanilla test case where I can actually see what's happening.


I really really had enough with this kind of comments. NO. JUST. NO. It is so infuriating seeing people trying to justify the unreasonable behavior of the AI. And its even more infuriating that they are trying to blame the player for it. That they just dont play "right", they "jUsT neEd tO UsE a BeTtEr sTrAt". NO.
Im terribly sorry, but I just cant belive that you are writing this seriusly. Like how biased you have to be to belive this? If no ship is hugging the station, then if the station is firing at a single one that can get behiond the others really quickly and efficently.
Please tell me you are just pretending, and playing devils advocate and not really beliving what you are saying.

Please moderate your tone towards other forum members. This is an official warning.
Logged

Hiruma Kai

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 886
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2021, 10:07:37 AM »

so Im gonna leave it uploading & go to bed. Its at 10% rn, just gonna drop the link now https://www.mediafire.com/file/3vlygjsmghowj0p/test_save.7z/file

So out of curiosity, I downloaded the save.  That's quite the mod collection you've got running. :)

So, your cruiser officer looks to be cautious and has been given a converted fighter bay?  My guess is it is using cautious carrier AI, although I'm not positive if a single bay will switch over to carrier AI.   Generally a cautious carrier stays way back, since its fighters have a range of 4000 and cautious means stay at maximum range while having 1 weapon system in range.  The S-mod expanded missile isn't doing much for the ship unfortunately, given it has only 1 Kneecapper MRM pod (which regenerates ammo like a salamander).  The dedicated targeting unit s-mod does give your beams a range of 1500 on its all beam loadout (Graviton, Ion, 2x Tactical, 2x PD, 2x Mining), so that's helping some.  Although, the ship is running 0 extra caps and only 3 extra vents and will slowly build up soft flux on itself.  It exerts only 400 soft shield damage per second on a target, which to be honest is quite low for a cruiser.

The mercantile convoy you talk about has an expanded missile racks + integrated targeting unit equipped Venture with dual annihilator pods, dual annihilator launchers, and dual hypervelocity drivers.  It's only d-mod is damaged flight deck. So flux free HE and 1600 range hard flux kinetics, plus ablative mining drones.  Also 0.95 shield with 470 flux/second in vent capacity.  There's a level 4 officer on the Venture (reliability engineering, helmsmanship, target analysis, elite gunnery implants) versus level 2 officer on the Fury (helmanship and strike commander).  The skills are different from Vanilla so I'm not sure how that factors in.  Also, I don't remember mining pods running that far away from the Venture, I mean like at least half a screen length away.

Given the escort destroyer is only equipped with PD and a salamander equivalent whose role is "Disabler", it wouldn't surprise me if it decides to escort your cruiser every engagement.  Certainly in both pictures you show, the destroyer is very close to the cruiser.  It does have an aggressive officer at least.

The Brawler is reckless, but equipped with 1000 range suppression weapons.  At least in the first image, it looks like it was in fact engaging, so perhaps working as intended.  But it's going to be staying pretty far away even when it does engage, simply because all it's weapon systems are long range.

The mod frigate (Hedone) is equipped with dual light machine guns and an aggressive officer, so it should be engaging (and was according to your screenshots).

The player is piloting a hammer torpedo + pd weapon kite, so good strike while the missiles last (12 total with expanded missile racks + missile skill).

So I tried engaging the mercantile fleet as is.

The destroyer broke off and did in fact try to engage a Mule with a Torch and Hound.  Problem was the Mule was equipped with 2 railguns, a heavy mauler, and ITU and thus severely out ranged the 600 range PD guns (1200 Heavy Mauler and 840 railguns).  But it was trying at least.  It would dive in, shoot, and then pull out because, well, it was losing the range war on the dive in.

Brawler was engaging 1 on 1 with a Heavy Blaster Wolf, but lacking hard flux damage, was losing that exchange off on the right.

The Fury looked like standard cautious officer behavior, and was backing off starting fairly early because of it's long range weapons and fighters.  It destroyed a forward kite fairly early on.  The Hedone was 1vs1 a Hound, but was definitely engaging, as expected of an aggressive officer and ended up at the top of the map.

Behavior looks roughly like what I'd expect given the officers involved.  Your fleet's configuration essentially requires all your ships to focus fire on anything bigger than a Frigate because of the beam composition.  Your fleet's hard flux shield damage is basically a time accelerated Yacht with 2x dual light machine guns, a converted hangar broadsword, and a converted hangar high tech talon (4 fighters with a dual light mg each)?  Given the player is piloting the smallest ship, which basically only has 12 hammer torpedoes, there's very little long term player pressure available.

The Mercantile convoy is all long range and typically ITU boosted, is 85% CR to your 70% CR, and running rare weapons like railguns, hypervelocity drivers, heavy maulers and heavy blasters. The two Hounds have Hypervelocity drivers.  The vigilance is running Graviton + Pilum.  The wolf is packing a heavy blaster and sabots.  One kite is strike it looks like, while the other is harrass (salamanders).  It out numbers your fleet, generally out ranges your ships, and in the case of the Hounds, is roughly as fast.  To be honest, if this were a purely AI tournament fight, I'd expect the Mercantile fleet to win.

Edit:  I ran the fight one more time, and left the player kite to AI control (pressed u).  Watching the overall fight rather than frantically piloting a torpedo frigate attempting to get a good shot, the Fury definitely seems to engage ships smaller than itself.  So I might be wrong about the carrier AI.  It will plasma burn in, but then back off, presumably trying to keep to its optimal 1000-1500 range or so.  All the ships seemed to be fighting something the entire time.  However, superior range and CR took it's toll ending with victory for the merchant fleet.  Without player guided torpedos, the fleet just doesn't kill even frigates or destroyers fast (other than that Hedone - that thing is nasty while it's CR holds).  Overall, it looked like ships were acting in accordance with their officer AI.

Edit 2:  To offer a concrete suggestion, try swapping for a Reckless officer on the Fury (or edit it in the save file to change Quinn from cautious to reckless).
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 11:26:33 AM by Hiruma Kai »
Logged

Drazan

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2021, 11:40:33 AM »

Im really sorry about my tone, i was unnecessary rude, i agree.
Logged

Zakaluka

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 26
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2021, 01:15:04 PM »

Like what is AI supposed to do, kite the station which has 3x the range?

Kiting, harass and point defense are all tools you actually can use to make an opening for your fleet to close on a 5 star threat station. So, I don't understand your statement. You need a couple ships designed to kite station fire in close, that can avoid overloading when they mess up and get clipped. A centurion or two will actually pull this off for you incredibly well. Also, point defense. Lots of point defense and fighters. Omens and drovers.

I'm interested in seeing your fleet comp against a star fortress. I think the big mistake here is trying to use heavy guns from range. I'm having better results right now with fast ships that can rotate cover, a couple centurions and omens that can kite station fire & fighters, plenty of fighter support, lots of point defense.

---

back to the OP though - there's a bit of a buried philosophical question, and a bit of a knife's edge to walk. If you make the AI really aggressive and coordinated, then the enemy AI will also be really aggressive and coordinated. It's like, you're playing under the same rules as the opponent, no matter what, that will be what you have to overcome: your AI is just as good as the enemy's.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 01:19:20 PM by Zakaluka »
Logged

Vextor

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: the #1 reason I don't play this game
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2021, 01:30:19 PM »

I was testing a loadout a week, maybe 2 weeks ago, so I can't remember 100% everything, but I can recall it failing terribly while full assault was on, and working perfectly while it was off.
On the other hand, some fits don't work while FA is off, as in the AI is way too cowardly even though it has the flux, speed and range to harass.

I always mount mid range weapons on everything at least (600), or above that (1000), except on the backside of capitals, but if my ships can't function under the same default orders my fleet is going to be a mess. I.e off: half my ships are fighting, the rest are having a staring contest from 1600 range away with the enemy; on: half my ships are suicidal while the previous contestants are fighting as something could be described as "steady behavior".
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 11