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Author Topic: Balance is WAAAY off  (Read 5140 times)

Yunru

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Re: Balance is WAAAY off
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2021, 06:42:38 AM »

I normally beeline for field repairs.

Better capacity is a must-have, as is getting more fuel and spending less on repairs.

Zakaluka

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Re: Balance is WAAAY off
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2021, 08:32:00 AM »

trading objectives is a really great way to stall the AI and/or force it not to turtle in one big clump. Consider that, perhaps, you don't need to control them.
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Thaago

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Re: Balance is WAAAY off
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2021, 09:43:57 AM »

trading objectives is a really great way to stall the AI and/or force it not to turtle in one big clump. Consider that, perhaps, you don't need to control them.

You can also peal off a few of the enemy ships/flankers in the beginning and drag them under with your own elite frigates and/or interceptor squadrons by contesting the points that the enemy main force isn't going to. Of course that is a bit of a 'slow' strategy, which can be painful if an enemy radiant and 5 support cruisers/destroyers are bearing down on your own main fleet.
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ElPresidente

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Re: Balance is WAAAY off
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2021, 12:14:49 AM »

I didn't fight them with just the Ion Nova. My fleet had a total of 4 such weapons (2 on one cruiser, 2 on one battleship). Most of my weapons were kinetics. I can post an image of my fleet, but I'm packing very flux efficient weapons. Even the Ion Nova is pretty efficient at 2000 flux per shot.

Maybe I'm just bad at this game, but again..why wasn't I this bad in 0.91?


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You can also peal off a few of the enemy ships/flankers in the beginning and drag them under with your own elite frigates and/or interceptor squadrons by contesting the points that the enemy main force isn't going to.

I actually have quite a few frigates in my lineup, some of them tuned for SUPREME SPEED. One of them did tie down 3 REDACTED frigates in the upper map corner.


As I said, I won in the end, but it feels like cheating, as I used super-carriers with the most OP bombers/fighters and a bunch of frigates with built-in super-drones.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 12:16:25 AM by ElPresidente »
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Killian

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Re: Balance is WAAAY off
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2021, 12:57:12 AM »

I didn't fight them with just the Ion Nova. My fleet had a total of 4 such weapons (2 on one cruiser, 2 on one battleship). Most of my weapons were kinetics. I can post an image of my fleet, but I'm packing very flux efficient weapons. Even the Ion Nova is pretty efficient at 2000 flux per shot.

Four of those is three too many, and probably four too many for most fights. A gun like that you should only ever need one of at most.

Flux efficiency doesn't matter much as a metric if your guns aren't putting out enough damage of the right types fast enough. Just to keep using the Nova Cannon as a punching bag even though it's basically ground beef at this point, 1,500 energy damage on a ~20 second cooldown is all of about 75 dps, which is a fraction of what the average Large mount can put out. I think the "lower end" ones start around 250-300 and only go up from there. Several are closer to 500, and a couple go even higher than that.

Do yourself a favour and actually post more details on the ships and weapons you're using - screenshots, links to the mods, whatever. Just stop being vague.



Maybe I'm just bad at this game, but again..why wasn't I this bad in 0.91?

As I understand it, Remnants got some buffs between .91 and .95, particularly with regard to the skill changes, so they're a lot nastier than they used to be.
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ElPresidente

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Re: Balance is WAAAY off
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2021, 07:40:03 AM »

Four of those is three too many, and probably four too many for most fights. A gun like that you should only ever need one of at most.

Flux efficiency doesn't matter much as a metric if your guns aren't putting out enough damage of the right types fast enough. Just to keep using the Nova Cannon as a punching bag even though it's basically ground beef at this point, 1,500 energy damage on a ~20 second cooldown is all of about 75 dps, which is a fraction of what the average Large mount can put out. I think the "lower end" ones start around 250-300 and only go up from there. Several are closer to 500, and a couple go even higher than that.

How would you suggest I balance it? I took over all files from the previous two people who worked on the mod.


Quote
Do yourself a favour and actually post more details on the ships and weapons you're using - screenshots, links to the mods, whatever. Just stop being vague.

As you wish:


Note that I didn't use the supercarrier and 2 of the drone frigates in my attempts earlier.

EDIT: posted a better image

« Last Edit: June 09, 2021, 08:16:12 AM by ElPresidente »
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Megas

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Re: Balance is WAAAY off
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2021, 07:52:41 AM »

As I understand it, Remnants got some buffs between .91 and .95, particularly with regard to the skill changes, so they're a lot nastier than they used to be.
They also have better officer power, and officer power controls ECM instead of fleet size, making it easier for them to outnumber you too.

Also, last release, there were no objectives in Ordos fights.  Now, there are.

Remnants seem stronger now than before.
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Killian

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Re: Balance is WAAAY off
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2021, 09:01:38 AM »

How would you suggest I balance it? I took over all files from the previous two people who worked on the mod.

So far as I can tell, it's already balanced around being a station-sieging weapon. It sounds like a very niche weapon that is quite effective in its specific role, but isn't meant to fight high-tech capitals because it can't handle their flux capacity/dissipation rate.

Sometimes that's how balance is - you get a gun that does one job really, really well, and that's all you use it for because it's not much good in any other role.



Quote
Do yourself a favour and actually post more details on the ships and weapons you're using - screenshots, links to the mods, whatever. Just stop being vague.

As you wish:
Note that I didn't use the supercarrier and 2 of the drone frigates in my attempts earlier.

EDIT: posted a better image



Well that's certainly an eclectic lineup. Somehow I'm not surprised that it's mostly Okim's old Steelclads project. That's going to make things harder, seeing as the last maintainer managed to make a complete ass of himself and all the old downloads got removed for being packed full of copyrighted music/SFX. ::)

This is still pretty vague though, there's nothing specific about the weapons themselves here. Again, just having the right damage types isn't enough, or good flux efficiency, or low OP costs... you need enough DPS or burst damage to make it work. I'll use Hiigaran Ion Beams as an example; they're very low OP-cost (for their slot, maybe 10-12 for med/20 tops for large) constant-fire beam weapons, with very low flux generation. What's the catch? Their DPS is weak too. I had an Ion-heavy fleet comp before I ran into radiants and they ruined my day because the beams were useless against their shields. I retooled into weapons that could put out hard-flux and my performance improved immensely, both against radiants in specific and remnants in general.

Since you're mostly using Steelclads ships and (probably) weapons though, I think it's safe to say where the balance issue lies. I'd bet any of the veterans here could put together a fleet sheet that uses only vanilla ships and only vanilla weapons, and can go toe-to-toe with remnants any day of the week.

If you really want to get into the weeds of balancing all that stuff, you're probably gonna need to get elbow-deep in some spreadsheets to properly compare all the various values, then start adjusting anything that looks to be too weak or too strong.



As I understand it, Remnants got some buffs between .91 and .95, particularly with regard to the skill changes, so they're a lot nastier than they used to be.
They also have better officer power, and officer power controls ECM instead of fleet size, making it easier for them to outnumber you too.

Also, last release, there were no objectives in Ordos fights.  Now, there are.

Remnants seem stronger now than before.

Well that would certainly explain why they easily break 50-60% ECM rating.

I think objectives can work in the player's favour though, as if you seize any of them that's more DP for you and that'll make up quite a bit of difference if they already have max DP from outnumbering you. They don't get any extra from objectives because they're already maxed out, and if their ECM is stupid-high already then jammers don't help them either (as the ECM diff stops counting at +/- 10%). The speed bonus from buoys is nice and all but it works best for small ships and I wouldn't rely on small ships too heavily against remnants, and the AI may not benefit from it if their fleet-leader core has Coordinated Maneuvers.
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SCC

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Re: Balance is WAAAY off
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2021, 10:21:50 AM »

Somehow I'm not surprised that it's mostly Okim's old Steelclads project.
You mean Ironclads. Steelclads is what Trashman named his continuation.


They also have better officer power, and officer power controls ECM instead of fleet size, making it easier for them to outnumber you too.

Also, last release, there were no objectives in Ordos fights.  Now, there are.

Remnants seem stronger now than before.
It's also worth noting that AI cores are both more numerous and as-good-or-better-than human officers.
As for objectives, I don't think they are very impactful. They're there to give the smaller side a chance to get even on DP, which is the player side. Without them, you would have fewer DPs, no matter what you do.

ElPresidente

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Re: Balance is WAAAY off
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2021, 01:19:52 AM »

Well that's certainly an eclectic lineup. Somehow I'm not surprised that it's mostly Okim's old Steelclads project. That's going to make things harder, seeing as the last maintainer managed to make a complete ass of himself and all the old downloads got removed for being packed full of copyrighted music/SFX. ::)

I was here back then, but in lurk mode. I saw what went on, and my impression would be very different, but whatevers.
Either way, I'm in charge of the mod now, so I'm cleaning it up as much as I can, given my meager skills. Any balancing advice would be appreciated.


Quote
This is still pretty vague though, there's nothing specific about the weapons themselves here. Again, just having the right damage types isn't enough, or good flux efficiency, or low OP costs... you need enough DPS or burst damage to make it work. I'll use Hiigaran Ion Beams as an example; they're very low OP-cost (for their slot, maybe 10-12 for med/20 tops for large) constant-fire beam weapons, with very low flux generation. What's the catch? Their DPS is weak too. I had an Ion-heavy fleet comp before I ran into radiants and they ruined my day because the beams were useless against their shields. I retooled into weapons that could put out hard-flux and my performance improved immensely, both against radiants in specific and remnants in general.

Truth be told, I did nerf/rebelance a lot of the weapons (as they were way too flux efficient), but there's plenty of heavy hitters.
A 250dps 1000 range kinetic beam in a mediunm slot?
Most mediums weapons range in DPS between 200-300, and a lot of them are not alpha-stike, but continous DPS weapons


Could be my fleet setup, could be some other thing,s but I swear the enemis ARE tougher.



Quote
Well that would certainly explain why they easily break 50-60% ECM rating.

I think objectives can work in the player's favour though, as if you seize any of them that's more DP for you and that'll make up quite a bit of difference if they already have max DP from outnumbering you. They don't get any extra from objectives because they're already maxed out, and if their ECM is stupid-high already then jammers don't help them either (as the ECM diff stops counting at +/- 10%). The speed bonus from buoys is nice and all but it works best for small ships and I wouldn't rely on small ships too heavily against remnants, and the AI may not benefit from it if their fleet-leader core has Coordinated Maneuvers.

So I wasn't imagining their swarming me.
Turns out the only objective point worth anything in a fight against them in the Comm mode.
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Killian

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Re: Balance is WAAAY off
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2021, 07:17:55 AM »

I was here back then, but in lurk mode. I saw what went on, and my impression would be very different, but whatevers.
Either way, I'm in charge of the mod now, so I'm cleaning it up as much as I can, given my meager skills. Any balancing advice would be appreciated.

My assumption - given that Ironclads started as a TC - is that the baseline balance is going to be completely internalized and probably not very compatible with vanilla except as a happy coincidence. You're gonna have your work cut out for you bringing it in line with vanilla, and honestly I just kinda tend to eyeball things and say "good enough" myself.

Like I said, if you really wanna get that stuff figured out then you'll probably want to punch all the stats into a spreadsheet, compare them to the vanilla weapons, then start tweaking and tuning and testing until they're in a good spot.



Truth be told, I did nerf/rebelance a lot of the weapons (as they were way too flux efficient), but there's plenty of heavy hitters.
A 250dps 1000 range kinetic beam in a mediunm slot?
Most mediums weapons range in DPS between 200-300, and a lot of them are not alpha-stike, but continous DPS weapons


Could be my fleet setup, could be some other thing,s but I swear the enemis ARE tougher.

Again, it's because the big ones are all running alpha cores, which means they all have eight elite skills. That means they're all benefitting from 20% more flux cap/disp, their shields taking 20% less damage from all types, 15% hard flux disp whilst shields are active, up to 30% more ballistic/energy damage at long range with faster projectiles, up to 30% more energy damage at short range when their flux is high - you name it, they've probably got it.



So I wasn't imagining their swarming me.
Turns out the only objective point worth anything in a fight against them in the Comm mode.

You can always check the % split by hovering over the DP limit bar on the deployment window, but it's safe to assume that in any given fight vs a remnant Ordo, they will have 60% and you will have 40%. You can outmass smaller groups, but they're barely a threat to a reasonably-capable fleet anyway.
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