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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Skill Changes, Part 2 (07/15/21)

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Author Topic: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase ships and minor faction v0.3.1  (Read 15564 times)

Kayse

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase Ship kitbashes and minor faction v0.2.5
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2021, 06:38:42 AM »

so i have a question: is it just me or is the phase carrier really underpowered? it only has one hangar, and costs 20 DP (in comparison that one carrier with  2 hangars has 10 Dp) a carrier is also supposed to stay away which it both does not do(and dies) while also not even having weapons to back up the phase ability. so i think maybe the way it works should be changed, considering i can install the phase fighters onto other ships as well(and that they arent't that good to begin with)
Great feedback, let me explain how I attempted to balance that ship.

First off, phase ships are always expensive in DP. So if you are optimizing your fleet on minimizing the DP that you need to accomplish your goals, phase ships are likely going to look bad. You're comparing the Haunt against the Condor (2 fighter bays for 10 DP) for a slow carrier. The Haunt is actually based on the Drover, which has a faster ship speed and a more carrier-concentric system. The drover is considered the best destroyer-sized vanilla carrier, so I wanted to balance against that, to make sure that the Haunt wasn't a better pure carrier than the drover.

Secondly, phase ships and carriers are normally incompatible. There are no vanilla phase carriers to compare to and the Converted Hanger hull mod specifically does not work on phase ships. That says to me that lore-wise it is very difficult (practically impossible) to have a phase carrier. The description of the Haunt ship plays into that, stating that it just doesn't work without specifically phase fighters, otherwise something REDACTED happens.

Thirdly, mechanically, the game balances carriers with time. Fighter Combat Readiness takes time to recover, fighters take time to rearm and/or rebuild. It assumes that carriers will be experiencing the battle at 100% speed. Phase ships don't. With the right skills, you can get a phase ship to experience time at 300% rate, which breaks Fighter CR and rearm time. So while the Haunt only has one fighter bay, it's fighters should recover 200% or 300% faster than normal. Plus the Reserve Deployment system allows an extra fighter in a pinch. They won't have the sheer numbers to overwhelm enemy PD for a strike, but they should have the constant drip of fighters to provide a good fighter screen for protections, plus sometimes attack vulnerable enemies.

Fourth, the Poltergeist fighters are very good, in my testing. They drop as a LPC, so I attempted to balance them against other fighters. They're basically broadswords with burst lasers (so a bit more up-front damage, great for phasing in, dropping to real space to blast and phasing back out) and a phase cloak. That phase cloak makes them tricky to whip out completely, since they can phase during Flak bursts or past the point defense arcs. In my experience testing, Poltergeists can be ruthless exploiting gaps in PD coverage or in shields, able to blast the butt off of a lone Falcon or Eagle given time and opportunity. They're expensive in OP, but the Haunt gets them for free. If you just want to field two wings of Poltergeist in a destroyer carrier, get a Drover or Condor (and optionally put Insulated Engine Assembly on it to make it somewhat stealthy).

Finally, what is my goal with the Haunt? I didn't want the Haunt to be another Alpha-strike, bomber carrier, I wanted it to be able to tag along with small phase fleets and provide them with some fighter screening. Phase ships struggle against fighters/missiles (they tend to have limited PD arcs), so it would make sense that a PHASEOPS task force would experiment with different ways to partially cover that weakness, but I didn't want to negate that weakness completely. In WW2 terms, consider them Escort Carriers, not Fleet Carriers.

Quote
a carrier is also supposed to stay away which it both does not do(and dies)
Hmm, that is concerning, the Haunt isn't a combat carrier (it does not have the COMBAT tag), so it shouldn't be charging into battle. I assume you don't have a reckless captain or non-PD weapons on it? I'll see if I can recreate that.

Thank you for your feedback and insight. Hopefully my response lets you see where I'm coming from. :)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 06:53:45 AM by Kayse »
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Kayse

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase Ship kitbashes and minor faction v0.2.6
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2021, 07:29:34 AM »

save crash everytime updated this mod....
Histidine has put out a fix mod that prevents the Phase Field hull mod from causing a save crash. It can be downloaded here.
Phase Field Save Fix 1.0

Hopefully that helps anyone who is seeing this crash.

Edit: Stealth update to v0.2.6: Removed some excess Ordnance Points from the Azrael. It was way too high and as such, didn't really gain anything from building in hullmods. It went from 300 OP to 240 OP and still feels fine. It's currently 35 OP over what the Guideline states is recommended, but that is in line with the Odyssey and Paragon (and the Guideline itself states that capitals tend to have some extra). The biggest impact is that you'll need to fit Azrael for specific goals, instead of just grabbing all of the armor and offense hullmods and maxing out flux. Can still solo a SIM Conquest, just much closer (the Azrael was on a sliver of hull). May still tweak if needed.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 02:48:47 PM by Kayse »
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connortron7

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase Ship kitbashes and minor faction v0.2.6
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2021, 05:34:07 PM »

hey just poppin in to say mausoleum and crypt names are used by the exalted (if you care about planet conflicts, not a big deal tho! just seen some confusion on discord regarding both using the name)


overall tho likin the mod!


EDIT:resolved on discord
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 06:28:20 PM by connortron7 »
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Kayse

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase Ship kitbashes and minor faction v0.2.6
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2021, 06:14:12 PM »

hey just poppin in to say mausoleum and crypt names are used by the exalted (if you care about planet conflicts, not a big deal tho! just seen some confusion on discord regarding both using the name)


overall tho likin the mod!
Hmm, I thought they were used by Anvil (your explicitly dead mod) based on the "Already Used Names" sheet listing the planets as Anvil Industries. I even (belatedly) checked!

Sorry, I didn't realize that you were still using them in Exalted. I can change them if you'd like, it's less fiddly than changing a ship name. :)

Thanks!


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Kayse

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase Ship and minor faction v0.3.0
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2021, 12:36:23 PM »

NOTE: Should be save safe, but there are drastic ship changes that may cause weirdness to existing fleets. It shouldn't crash, but you might see Haunts with partial wings until those fleets disband. Buyer Beware. As always, please remove the old mod folder when installing an update.

v0.3.0: Phase Carriers
New Ships:
Ghost Cruiser-sized carrier
Necromancer Destroyer-sized Drone Tender/Combat Salvage
Maggot Torpedo Bomber
Corpse Drone

Rebalanced Ships and Misc changes:
Haunt gets two launch bays and can change the wings.
Bansidhe gets a reduction in DP from 30 to 25
New Hullmod: Phase Carrier. Built into Haunt and Ghost, it slows down launching if you use any non-NSO fighters.
New Ship system: Reanimate Salvage for the Necromancer
Reduces the frequency that TriTachyon should be uses these ships a bit.

Compatability with other mods:
Added Version Checker support.
Improved Nexerelin support for New Start mod.
Renamed the planets in the NSO star system to avoid conflicting with Anvil/Exalt. Will need a new save to see.
Updated the Test Mission and SIM list to include the new ships.

The new Ships:
Spoiler

Ghost: Phase Carrier


Necromancer: Combat Salvage


Corpse: Drone (used with Necromancer)


Maggot: Phase Bomber
[close]
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megabot

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase Ship and minor faction v0.3.0
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2021, 02:11:26 PM »

so umm, if I may say something, I...to be honest i feel like the phase carriesrs(at least the 20 DP thicc one i tried) are really not viable. the thing about phase ships is it allows you to relocate quickly, vent soft flux in p space, have hit and run tactics in general and have some systems that make them quite powerful, from mines to overloading a ship. however the carriers seem to have none of that, as they stay away from the combat and this do not use the expensive phase coils while still at times being hunted down because they do not move away. and the phase fighters don't seem to be all that powerful either to be honest as they have no shielding and just randomly(from what it looks like) phase in and out to just quickly die to point defense and anything, really as they are just fighters

i have no idea if i do not "play it correctly" or if it needs changing and how it is possible to change it, but right now they are kind of a let down. so yeah. please prove me wrong if i am though, i kinda am interested in using them carriers
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Kayse

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase Ship and minor faction v0.3.0
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2021, 06:38:59 PM »

so umm, if I may say something, I...to be honest i feel like the phase carriesrs(at least the 20 DP thicc one i tried) are really not viable. the thing about phase ships is it allows you to relocate quickly, vent soft flux in p space, have hit and run tactics in general and have some systems that make them quite powerful, from mines to overloading a ship. however the carriers seem to have none of that, as they stay away from the combat and this do not use the expensive phase coils while still at times being hunted down because they do not move away. and the phase fighters don't seem to be all that powerful either to be honest as they have no shielding and just randomly(from what it looks like) phase in and out to just quickly die to point defense and anything, really as they are just fighters

i have no idea if i do not "play it correctly" or if it needs changing and how it is possible to change it, but right now they are kind of a let down. so yeah. please prove me wrong if i am though, i kinda am interested in using them carriers
No worries. I'm still trying to find the good balance point for phase carriers, so will keep an eye to see how they are preforming and may continue adjusting them.

In regards to knowing how to "play it correctly", I'm not an expert. That said, I've added the No Such Org ships to the refit simulation (and have a No Such Org Test Mission to make jumping into refit fast and easy), so you can see how things stack up yourself.

They are very artificial match ups, but I think that the carriers are at an okay place, balance wise, for now.
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megabot

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase Ship kitbashes and minor faction v0.2.5
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2021, 01:37:20 PM »


Quote
a carrier is also supposed to stay away which it both does not do(and dies)
Hmm, that is concerning, the Haunt isn't a combat carrier (it does not have the COMBAT tag), so it shouldn't be charging into battle. I assume you don't have a reckless captain or non-PD weapons on it? I'll see if I can recreate that.

Thank you for your feedback and insight. Hopefully my response lets you see where I'm coming from. :)

i didn't use a commander at all, that is the thing. i fought against a station I believe and...well tbh some phase ships handle quite badly in AI hands like the [redacted], tho that one is fearless i believe. usually on stations i have to go full assault because else nobody does *** but the carrier always died even before hand(also considering the station is always with shields maybe they aren't a good idea)

maybe a ridiculous idea, but what about a phase carrier that has fighters which are basically mines, aka. phase fighters with a self destruct module that damages enemies too? maybe make them smaller but faster and faster to trigger than the doom mines, with maybe more mines per hangar. just an idea tho
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megabot

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase ships and minor faction v0.3.0
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2021, 01:38:27 PM »

also, to be honest, so far the carrier does not phase out to increase the rate of redeployment. they just do their thing and then die. so the AI has multiple ways of how it is unable to use it tbh


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Kayse

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase Ship kitbashes and minor faction v0.2.5
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2021, 02:52:04 PM »


Quote
a carrier is also supposed to stay away which it both does not do(and dies)
Hmm, that is concerning, the Haunt isn't a combat carrier (it does not have the COMBAT tag), so it shouldn't be charging into battle. I assume you don't have a reckless captain or non-PD weapons on it? I'll see if I can recreate that.

Thank you for your feedback and insight. Hopefully my response lets you see where I'm coming from. :)

i didn't use a commander at all, that is the thing. i fought against a station I believe and...well tbh some phase ships handle quite badly in AI hands like the [redacted], tho that one is fearless i believe. usually on stations i have to go full assault because else nobody does *** but the carrier always died even before hand(also considering the station is always with shields maybe they aren't a good idea)

maybe a ridiculous idea, but what about a phase carrier that has fighters which are basically mines, aka. phase fighters with a self destruct module that damages enemies too? maybe make them smaller but faster and faster to trigger than the doom mines, with maybe more mines per hangar. just an idea tho
I'm noticing that every so often the carrier will phase, not feel threatened by enemies (maybe because the enemies start getting over-fluxed) so decide to move closer to "hit them with their swords", the enemy recovers some flux but now the carrier is too close/too fluxed and it just doesn't know how to handle that.

Hmm, not sure if I can fix that or not.

Good idea with the smart-mine idea, probably more traditionally a built-in missile launcher than a suicide fighter (these aren't Luddics ;) ), but I haven't messed around with weapons enough to see what is possible there.

also, to be honest, so far the carrier does not phase out to increase the rate of redeployment. they just do their thing and then die. so the AI has multiple ways of how it is unable to use it tbh
That shouldn't be something that the AI does "on purpose" but rather just naturally from phasing, it should speed up local time so will recover fighters and fighter CR faster.
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Deshara

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase ships and minor faction v0.3.0
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2021, 03:57:04 PM »

the suicide fighters thing is literally gonna be the new hyperion's system lol as far as trying to give phase carriers some juice, I think what needs to be focused on is giving them powerful ship systems that use soft flux as a limitor. That's how vanilla makes phase ships stand out. As mentioned, part of the appeal of phasing is venting soft flux in p-space -- just think of what you can do with soft flux that would be interesting. If you have a phase carrier with a built in set of fighters (U dont get to choose what it deploys) then you could give it a special version of reserve deployment that deploys a whole second wing of fighters with timed life at a severe cost of soft flux, so the intended use of it is to phase in to an enemy ship, clowncar it and then phase away while dropping flux in p-space. Another idea is a carrier that you can choose what it deploys, with a ship system that makes it take on it's fighters flux intake as soft flux (a hullmod from moderncarriers(?) does this so i know it isnt impossible) -- a ship system that specifically benefits shield fighters, a niche that is currently unfilled. Its role is to support high tech fighters as they assault something making them effectively invulnerable against a single target until their carrier gets flux saturated then phase away to burn soft flux in safety & replace its fighters
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megabot

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase Ship kitbashes and minor faction v0.2.5
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2021, 01:19:34 PM »

Good idea with the smart-mine idea, probably more traditionally a built-in missile launcher than a suicide fighter (these aren't Luddics ;) ), but I haven't messed around with weapons enough to see what is possible there.

i thought more of fighters because for one phase planes for fighters are easier to implement both in the p space thing with flux and targeting things that as an example have their shields down or not fully open (although i know the salamander is special in that it targets the engnes so weapons might do it as well). plus i quoted fighter(i believe, i forgot what i wrote to the exact " set) because it is more like the remnant ships in that it is just an aoutonomous thing, or steered from the actual ship remotely with the pilots sitting in front of a computer
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chaincat

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase ships and minor faction v0.3.0
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2021, 01:36:41 AM »

Do you think we could see phase colossus to go with the phase phaeton? A stealthy cargo ship would lose a fair bit of functionality to accommodate the phase coils, but it would be a boon for phase explorers trying to avoid [REDACTED] and [MOD REDACTED] while salvaging and exploring, and also a boon for smugglers trying to get AI cores contraband past the Hegemony
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Deshara

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase ships and minor faction v0.3.0
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2021, 02:18:48 AM »

Do you think we could see phase colossus to go with the phase phaeton? A stealthy cargo ship would lose a fair bit of functionality to accommodate the phase coils, but it would be a boon for phase explorers trying to avoid [REDACTED] and [MOD REDACTED] while salvaging and exploring, and also a boon for smugglers trying to get AI cores contraband past the Hegemony

have you found the revenant? Or do you mean capital-class phase freighter specifically?
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Kayse

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Re: [0.95a] No Such Org - Phase ships and minor faction v0.3.0
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2021, 03:25:18 AM »

Do you think we could see phase colossus to go with the phase phaeton? A stealthy cargo ship would lose a fair bit of functionality to accommodate the phase coils, but it would be a boon for phase explorers trying to avoid [REDACTED] and [MOD REDACTED] while salvaging and exploring, and also a boon for smugglers trying to get AI cores contraband past the Hegemony
As Deshara mentions, the vanilla Revenant is already a great phase cargo ship at Cruiser size; the No Such Org faction uses Revenants heavily for their own mass cargo transport (and sell the hull fairly commonly). For the specifically smuggler use, the Barrow is a destroyer sized hull with shielded cargo holds and decent storage size, it's meant to be a stepping stone to the Revenant or a smuggler darling.

Is there something that you're still missing that those two ships cannot provide?
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