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Author Topic: Rate my Legion, other ideas  (Read 1478 times)

Drazan

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Rate my Legion, other ideas
« on: May 28, 2021, 03:42:10 PM »

So there was some legion setuo discussion in other threads, and there were some interesting ideas, what do you think of this one?
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This one works fine for me, probably can be better. Still think that the legion underperforms compared to other capitals, it should only be 35 DP or should get like 20-30more OP.
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Igncom1

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Re: Rate my Legion, other ideas
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2021, 03:54:50 PM »

Seems like an interesting loadout!

Personally I build mine like a Dominator with two complimentary large ballistics, supporting missiles (mass harpoons can help delete a few ships, or reapers for hammering a foe to death) and then stack on something like broadswords for support.

A legion in my eyes works best as the ultimate escort for other capitals (other then just another battleship.)
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Drazan

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Re: Rate my Legion, other ideas
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2021, 03:58:31 PM »

I too always want to use it as an upscaled dominator but i always find the flux stats lacking for that
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Arcagnello

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Re: Rate my Legion, other ideas
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2021, 04:01:32 PM »

Quote
So there was some Legion setup discussion in other threads, and there were some interesting ideas, what do you think of this one?
Are you referring to the one where this mad luddite desperately wants to play low tech only vanilla campaigns and not be bashed over the head by the game for it? I would not take anything he says seriously  ::)

The ship itself looks like it's going to be very able to hold its own in the frontline and provide massive point defence to its allies. With that said, I'd do the following:

First things first, retrofitting looks quite alright
...if I do say so myself! The only one I'm not so sure about being Hardened shields. Not because it's not good, mind you, it's one of the best hullmods in the game and I integrated it myself on my own XIV Legions in the previous campaign I completed.
I would've integrated something like Reinforced Bulkheads instead, especially because I can see you're going to the Full Armor route with both Heavy Armor and Armored Weapon Mounts. I would also suggest you to try and install Solar Shielding too since it heavily reduces energy damage and almost amounts to installing Hardened Shields twice against incoming energy damage!
Secondly
...that's a lot of point defence capability my dear Luddite (or Luddette?), some might argue it's even too much of it! I'd probably do three things:
1)I'd cut all but one (maybe two) Xyphos wings for offense focused fighter/bomber LPCs
2)I would cut both Devastators for two Mk.9 Autocannons
3)I would fill all the small ballistic turrets with 3OP light machineguns and replace those two flaks for 12OP Dual Flaks
Thirdly
...the Sabot Pod is a very good medium missile weapon, but you don't have Expanded Missile Racks Hullmod for it! I would replace both missile pods and that Heavy autocannon for 3 Heavy maulers instead!
Lastly
You're going to want a steady/aggressive officer with the following skills:
Elite Point Defence
Elite Strike Commander
Gunnery Implants
Reliability Engineering
Shield Modulation
Target Analysis
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 05:02:32 PM by Arcagnello »
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Drazan

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Re: Rate my Legion, other ideas
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2021, 04:17:32 PM »

Are you referring to the one where this mad luddite desperately wants to play low tech only vanilla campaigns and not be bashed over the head by the game for it?
Perhaps he gave me a few ideas :D

My primary problem is the lack of OP
Im not sure about the hullmods either, I was thinking about solar shield as well, but i cant install everything, would get automated repair before solar shielding tho, if i had the OP
My problem with going 3 medium ballistic and 2 large ballistic is that i can never have enough flux for that, and mkIX just cant hit hard enough by itself. Devastators have an awesome damage/flux efficency, and the AI is competent with it. If i can get trough shields ( by saboots) the devastators make short work of even hevier armor.
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Drazan

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Re: Rate my Legion, other ideas
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2021, 04:47:22 PM »

Yeah hardened shield was a mistake
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Thaago

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Re: Rate my Legion, other ideas
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2021, 04:52:23 PM »

Hardened shields is good on a Legion, but it needs some offensive weapons! Or, if you want it to be a defensive brick, reduce your vents by 40 or more and invest those points into missiles instead of flaks and vulcans in the smalls, and the missile hullmods.
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Drazan

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Re: Rate my Legion, other ideas
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2021, 04:59:03 PM »

Devastator is an offensive weapon, maybe it says anti-fighter, but actually it is anti-anything, you just need to get a bit closer. More missiles are definitely a good idea. Im gonna ditch xyphoses altogether. I'll miss them, its soo good to see them EMP an enemy to uselessness.
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Warnoise

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Re: Rate my Legion, other ideas
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2021, 06:17:01 PM »

If you're gonna do that many points on vents then I'd advise to go for long range medium weapons instead
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Thaago

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Re: Rate my Legion, other ideas
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2021, 07:25:07 PM »

Yeah, even with the devastators as offense its still very undergunned. With 1200 dissipation I would guestimate that a build could support up to about 1600 flux of weapons, considering that weapons don't fire all the time. That might be a little bit overgunned, but its better to be overgunned than undergunned. Any time the ship has shields up and there is no soft flux, the ship's dissipation is being wasted.
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dreamdancer

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Re: Rate my Legion, other ideas
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2021, 09:48:42 AM »

but its better to be overgunned than undergunned.

Is it? The AI is much more likely to end up with high flux and enemies like to gang up on high flux ships. In my personal experience, the AI is less likely to get into trouble and kill itself, if it's undergunned in terms of flux dissipation. That's less of an issue with fast ships that can fall back, but the Legion is not one of those.
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Igncom1

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Re: Rate my Legion, other ideas
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2021, 09:52:36 AM »

Yeah if anything I always undergun so my ships can unleash a torrent of fire almost constantly.

Only fast high tech ships can get away with, or are basically forced really, to have weapons they can only fire once or twice before needing to withdraw.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Rate my Legion, other ideas
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2021, 09:55:12 AM »

but its better to be overgunned than undergunned.

Is it? The AI is much more likely to end up with high flux and enemies like to gang up on high flux ships. In my personal experience, the AI is less likely to get into trouble and kill itself, if it's undergunned in terms of flux dissipation. That's less of an issue with fast ships that can fall back, but the Legion is not one of those.

More weapons on a big ship can indeed result in a lot of flux building up and leaving the ship vulnerable since it's basically halfway throu the job of overloading itself before even taking fire from the enemy, but I'm pretty sure the standard legion can run at least two large ballistics at the same time plus point defence and a medium ballistic or two without many issues. Two hellbores and 3 HVDs or Two Mk.9 Autocannons and 2 Heavy maulers should be somewhat sustainable, especially if you got the full effects of the Flux Regulation skill going.

Sure, too many weapons can be bad, but having too little in slow ships to properly drive the faster enemy away is not good either. Which is what both Igncom1 and Thaago are saying!

« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 09:57:26 AM by Arcagnello »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Rate my Legion, other ideas
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2021, 10:00:50 AM »

I would say it's generally good to over-gun with kinetics that can trade your capacity away efficiently. The AI isn't very good with over-gunned ships though, and I think it's best to stay close to dissipation, and I would generally not want 1600 weapon flux/sec on a 1200 dissipation ship.

IMO it's bad to over-gun with inefficient (vs. shields) energy/HE weapons, and I think high tech ships are better off leaving their slots empty than over gunning.

I still think the OP's legion is pretty severely undergunned for a 40 DP ship though.
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Thaago

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Re: Rate my Legion, other ideas
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2021, 10:26:58 AM »

The AI will throttle its weapons when it reaches about half flux, starting with the higher flux groups. So on the one hand yes, the ship is paying in OP for weapons that don't fire all the time, which is inefficient and a waste of OP, so its a bad idea to be too overgunned. 1600 on a 1200 ship is probably pushing the limit, so I was being a bit aggressive. But on the other hand, there are some advantages to being overgunned:

The extra flux cost for the first half of the bar isn't being wasted, its being shot at the enemy (and if thats a waste due to missed shots, then thats a problem with the weapons chosen and officer rather than flux levels tbh). I agree with others: if those guns are inefficient energy/HE then the flux trade isn't worth it because you are effectively 'damaging' yourself more than the enemy. But if those guns are kinetic thats not the case. Raising enemy flux also makes them back off and inhibits their ability to fire at the very least. And for any kind of asymmetric situation where the firing ship starts at an advantage (either a smaller enemy or from allies) being overgunned means the enemy get overfluxed/overloaded/disabled/killed faster simply because there's more inbound firepower.

There is also the consideration of the AI's shield use: it uses the shield too much because using it too little would be worse and shield decisions are hard. Anytime the AI has its shields up, its not firing, and the flux bar has no soft flux, dissipation is being wasted! That might sound like a niche circumstance but its really not. By being overgunned, there should more often be soft flux in the bar, which means that the ship is less often wasting its dissipation.

There's also weapons being disabled: for an undergunned or balanced ship, any weapon being disabled means that for the duration of the disable they are wasting dissipation (as the shields are most likely up anyways). For an overgunned ship: it just means they throttle the other guns less. Its still a bad thing to have weapons knocked out, but its not nearly as bad because there are effective backups.

Summing up: I feel like dissipation and capacity lets you shoot guns, but the guns need to be there to shoot.
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