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Author Topic: A Tale of Two Tech Levels  (Read 16287 times)

TaLaR

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #165 on: June 04, 2021, 12:42:11 AM »

... hmm. Right, yes, that's (not always wanting racks) kind of what I meant by having the most expensive mods be specialized. Still, this is a good point. On the other hand, it seems like a 10% Hardened Shields would be way too good if it was the same cost-tier as Flux Distributor... and going below 10% would just feel bad.

Even hullmod buffing most important stats can become irrelevant, if it is nerfed to be too inefficient at that.
Take frigate ITU for example - I use it exactly never after the nerf. A frigate can't outrange large ships anyway, so reducing approach/retreat time by fraction of a second is not worth 4 OP.
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Locklave

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #166 on: June 04, 2021, 02:36:29 AM »

They do because the higher the armor, the more damage is mitigated, and low tech has more armor. At 900 armor instead of 500 for example for example anything thats large enough to not be at minimum vs both does more damage to the Hammerhead (anything over 88 penetration to start, and then less as armor gets worn away). And then they have more residual armor, so each point of hull blocks more.

I believe I explained/worded that poorly, I'll retry it.
1. A low tech ship and a high tech ship with the same armor are equally good.
2. A low tech ship and a high tech ship with the same shields (flux capacity) are not equally good. Because shield of efficiency and flux dissipation.

Low tech has more armor default. So sort of it getting more from armor but no secondary factors are involved. But High tech is getting more shields, but those shields are worth even more just because it's on a high tech ship via secondary factors.

One specific tier is getting strengths on strengths. The other is not.
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Sarissofoi

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #167 on: June 04, 2021, 05:33:44 AM »

Good idea.
Low tech ships should get bonus to maximum armor damage reduction and bonus to min value when armor go to zero.
Having separate value for armor efficiency would be great but maybe too much.

Draba

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #168 on: June 04, 2021, 05:37:50 AM »

I'm not going to claim low tech is overpowered or more powerful: its not, its a bit weaker! But really only a bit. It can still be used from early game to endgame and win all fights.
Yep, "low tech isn't THAT bad" is often read as "low tech is just as strong as high". Late game high is a bit better, didn't see much argument there.
Low does have some extra tax, missiles usually want ECCM and practically always officer skill+racks. Heavy armor, resistant conduits, armored mounts, reinforced hull all strong candidates.
On the other hand OP allowance is relatively generous for those ships.
Didn't feel they need aux thrusters or helmsmanship on officers, work fine without it.

Armor doesn't do much unless you are getting beat down and is useless when you have the advantage.
...
Dampener field, while a welcome addition is as others have clearly stated an effort to bypass the corner Low tech has been painted into.
With high armor shields can be dropped in the middle of a fight and weapons still work at full output.
Paired with how it can ignore a good chunk of kinetics it's a big advantage, right now just not as good as speed+better shields.

Damper field isn't there to get around a universal low tech problem.
If I understand correctly it's there to fit a theme, giving the Vanguard very high armor for frigate level would mean it can tank smaller weapons but still dies to crackers really fast.
With damper field it can rush in guns blazing and tank everything, but will fall apart/get worn down after the initial rush. Fingers crossed the job is done before that :)

In that other thread where there were people who didn't use high tech frigates in a good way and claimed that they weren't extremely powerful: you use them in a much better way and know that they really are. The same kind of thing applies here: you aren't getting success with low tech, but that doesn't necessarily mean that low tech is awful and completely broken, just that you haven't gotten success with them yet.
To be fair there was still no example for some of the stronger claims.
Would still like to see an example how a full SO hyperion/scarab fleet rolls over some of the strong ordos in time, without losses.
If he says everybody sucks for not being able to do it a video is welcome.

How to smash the same remnants Ziggurat uses as SP dispensers without omega weapons:
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« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 09:26:09 AM by Draba »
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Sarissofoi

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #169 on: June 04, 2021, 06:28:32 AM »

IMAGINE
Imagine the glory of the Hound and Cerberos wolfpack with the DAMPER FIELD.
Spoiler
Maybe finally they will survive explosive death of their enemies.
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Yunru

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #170 on: June 04, 2021, 06:40:58 AM »

Do hounds really need the buff?
A fleet comprised entirely of speed-spec'd LP Hounds literally can't be caught :P

Sarissofoi

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #171 on: June 04, 2021, 07:10:44 AM »

And they blow easily and run out of timer fast.

Locklave

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #173 on: June 04, 2021, 01:26:53 PM »

With high armor shields can be dropped in the middle of a fight and weapons still work at full output.
Paired with how it can ignore a good chunk of kinetics it's a big advantage, right now just not as good as speed+better shields.

Right now the problem is the AI can't do that. Making the AI smart enough to do that would likely take the next 5 years focused entirely on that one thing and it would likely still do dumb stuff. Since I know the degree of impossibility of an AI solution I'm here asking for something the current AI can work with. Dampener fields. Maybe Alex is way ahead of everyone on the problem, the guy comes up with crazy creative solution I'd never have thought could be done. But I don't feel like that's being presented in this thread.

The AI can use speed and better shields with great success.

Dampener Fields on Hounds and Cerberus would be cool as hell, they'd be useful up till midgame. Make them pay for it with OP for sure, I'm not saying built in, why not breath life into ships that are instant replaced by nearly everything. Would a Cerberus with a Dampener field really ruin game balance, like the meta would instantly shift to 100% Cerberus fleets lol. With SO combined, restored,  it would be a good ship. The HORROR!

People talk like we are on a razors edge with balance and High tech would because D list if Low Tech stopped being w/e it is currently.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 01:39:10 PM by Locklave »
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6chad.noirlee9

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #174 on: June 04, 2021, 02:58:02 PM »

Hmm, why does Enforcer need Auxiliary Thrusters? It has a decent turn rate and all its guns are turrets. Similarly I've never installed it on the Dominator or Onslaught so I don't think its an OP tax.

I could see there being a variant with thrusters (maybe pirate or something) and then perhaps a midline or maybe the 14th bg one having damper field.  I REALLY like the idea of the damper field on one.
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edit: edit: maybe were just falling with style LOL.  make a bubble, make the space in front of it smaller and just fall forward

Draba

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #175 on: June 05, 2021, 04:25:44 AM »

With high armor shields can be dropped in the middle of a fight and weapons still work at full output.
Paired with how it can ignore a good chunk of kinetics it's a big advantage, right now just not as good as speed+better shields.

Right now the problem is the AI can't do that.
AI isn't very keen on tanking without shields, but it definitely drops them to avoid hits that won't damage armor too much.
For the sake of the example, imagine all lowtech ships got 500000 armor. Suddenly they smash everything so it's not a concept that fundamentally can't work.

People talk like we are on a razors edge with balance and High tech would because D list if Low Tech stopped being w/e it is currently.
There is a lot of hyperbole about low tech/destroyers/whatever being useless, a good portion from you. Compared to that any position will look conservative :)
High tech wouldn't become bad with a nerf or if low got a buff, nobody said that.

Point was that low is much better than people give it credit for.
A XIV Onslaught isn't even too out of place in a minmaxed fleet. Dominator and to a smaller extent Enforcer do let it down, but with durable support it's a decent artillery piece for 40 DP.
Low tech can use some help (mostly with durability IMO), but nothing as drastic as some people believe.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 04:35:07 AM by Draba »
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Soda Savvy

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #176 on: June 05, 2021, 01:57:38 PM »

How does the new shieldless ship deal with Omega weaponry with all their armor eating and whatnot?

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Megas

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #177 on: June 05, 2021, 07:14:50 PM »

How does the new shieldless ship deal with Omega weaponry with all their armor eating and whatnot?
And Breach missiles for that matter?
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Alex

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #178 on: June 05, 2021, 07:24:48 PM »

How does the new shieldless ship deal with Omega weaponry with all their armor eating and whatnot?

Probably not well at all!

And Breach missiles for that matter?

Though, yes, both that and the Disintegrator are affected by Damper Field.
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Lucky33

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #179 on: June 06, 2021, 01:31:04 AM »

For anybody in the "it is fine" gang.

Would you be so kind as to provide the Enforcer variant capable of completely dominating this thing here:



"Completely dominating" will be "winning three fights on autopilot in a row without taking hull damage".

No mods. No officers. No built-ins. No Weapon Drills. 70 % CR. Flux regulation and +10 caps/vents is OK.
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