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[WeiTuLo]

Wasn't there an interdiction field ship system at some point? It supposedly killed half the engines through shields or something.

[Retry]

Doom.  It was bad, which is why its system was swapped to Mines.

[Alex]

I think he's referring to the sort of pattern on Burn Drive ships:
-Ship begins at 0-flux cruise speed, heading towards ex: an Objective
-Ship activates Burn Drive, receiving a big temporary speed boost
-Burn drive period ends, ship slows down to normal max speed.  If not in a combat situation, ship will also have the 0-flux booost activate immediately afterwards, which means the ship must accelerate back up to the speed it was initially at

(Yep, that's exactly how I understood it.)

[DatonKallandor]

Regenerating ammo ballistics were very good, and I think they got given up on *way* too quickly. It provides so many interesting levers for balance and ways to differentiate ballistics more than the current stats. You run into a lot of "what is even the difference between these small kinetics" without it.

And they happen to also combo very nicely with damper fields and provide a good outlet to stop the traditional low-tech face-hugging technique from being unstoppable.

[Helldiver]

On destroyers with a large ballistic, there are interesting lessons that can be learned from mods that have had such ships in them for some time.

If the destroyer only has small mounts alongside the large mount, and people only have access to vanilla guns, players invariably use large kinetics there (Mjolnir usually excluded due to OP/flux) as kinetics are always useful, while HE is only useful when enemy shields are down which won't be achieved reliably (small guns won't have the range, sabots will only be available in small amounts, friendly ships can't be counted on due to haphazard AI).

If the destroyer has at least one medium mount that changes everything - as the ship gains reliable ability to create its own opportunities for a large HE gun (even if limited to vanilla weapons).

Using destroyers with a large ballistic mount as fire support ships usually doesn't work out well as they don't have access to cruiser/capital-grade range increases (ITU bonus much lower on DDs) - when trying to support a large ship they don't have the range to shoot the same targets reliably. If supporting smaller ships their aim gets blocked by allies frequently (causing AI to rarely fire). In player hands they can work well however, but normally don't make full use of Ranged Specialization (difficult to achieve max bonus threshold).


I'm excited to see the Starsector team tackling this ship concept and see how different it may end up from how it's been done so far.

[Sarissofoi]

Regenerating ammo ballistics were very good, and I think they got given up on *way* too quickly. It provides so many interesting levers for balance and ways to differentiate ballistics more than the current stats. You run into a lot of "what is even the difference between these small kinetics" without it.

And they happen to also combo very nicely with damper fields and provide a good outlet to stop the traditional low-tech face-hugging technique from being unstoppable.

Yeah. I support idea. I must admit that I just love dakka weapons.
Wish that Thumper was actually usable and something like this.

[Wyvern]

If the destroyer only has small mounts alongside the large mount, and people only have access to vanilla guns, players invariably use large kinetics there (Mjolnir usually excluded due to OP/flux) as kinetics are always useful, while HE is only useful when enemy shields are down which won't be achieved reliably (small guns won't have the range, sabots will only be available in small amounts, friendly ships can't be counted on due to haphazard AI).

...What?  Medium kinetics are, uh, really not all that.  And the hellbore is cheap, both in terms of OP and in terms of flux load. I'd expect to see exactly the opposite of what you describe: a hull with a large and some smalls would tend towards hellbore + railguns or light needlers (or, flux permitting, Mjolnir), while ones with medium slots or good numbers of missiles would be able to consider kinetic large options.

Regenerating ammo ballistics were very good, and I think they got given up on *way* too quickly. It provides so many interesting levers for balance and ways to differentiate ballistics more than the current stats. You run into a lot of "what is even the difference between these small kinetics" without it.

And they happen to also combo very nicely with damper fields and provide a good outlet to stop the traditional low-tech face-hugging technique from being unstoppable.

Yeah. I support idea. I must admit that I just love dakka weapons.
Wish that Thumper was actually usable and something like this.

Thirded. The original implementation of regenerating ammo on ballistics was bad, yes, but that's because it was (with very few exceptions) applied in a broad fashion that mostly boiled down to 'ballistic weapons deal half dps after a short time'.

[Sarissofoi]

I will also drop some general thoughts.

The Rugged Construction inbuilt hullmod could be added to some other low tech ships.
It could also offer some benefits in combat like faster repair for weapons or taking less damage from EMP weapons.
The problem with armor tanking is not only that its finite resource but its also make all weapons mounts open to suppression.
Having some Low Tech ships something like 'Resilient Subsystems' that reduce time offline or maybe straight reduce damage taken from EMP would be great(especially on non shield ships).
Shield Shunt also could use a buff.
also it would be great to get back some old Impact Mitigation bonuses(the one for both max and min damage reductions) maybe in a form of some hullmod?
Another thing for Low tech is that their flux capacity capacity alongside with bad shields make that they can't really shoot a lot - especially true for AI. AAF  help a lot but only few ships have it. Maybe some Ballistic Mod that helps with flux cost of weapon shooting would help?(in build on some LT ships).

Also(almost forgotten).
Recovery Shuttles.
Currently there are little to nor reason to even use this mod. I read some ideas about converting this mod into fleet buff instead that help recover not only lost pilots but also lost crew from disabled ships. It would greatly help LT/junk fleets. working kind of like some logistical mods.
I think its idea worth considering.

[SCC]

Ballistics with ammo makes low-tech kinda funny. High PPT, but low sustained performance because of ammo, but it wants quick fights because of relying on a limited resource for defence, but it's slow.

[FooF]

On destroyers with a large ballistic, there are interesting lessons that can be learned from mods that have had such ships in them for some time.

If the destroyer only has small mounts alongside the large mount, and people only have access to vanilla guns, players invariably use large kinetics there (Mjolnir usually excluded due to OP/flux) as kinetics are always useful, while HE is only useful when enemy shields are down which won't be achieved reliably (small guns won't have the range, sabots will only be available in small amounts, friendly ships can't be counted on due to haphazard AI).

If the destroyer has at least one medium mount that changes everything - as the ship gains reliable ability to create its own opportunities for a large HE gun (even if limited to vanilla weapons).

Using destroyers with a large ballistic mount as fire support ships usually doesn't work out well as they don't have access to cruiser/capital-grade range increases (ITU bonus much lower on DDs) - when trying to support a large ship they don't have the range to shoot the same targets reliably. If supporting smaller ships their aim gets blocked by allies frequently (causing AI to rarely fire). In player hands they can work well however, but normally don't make full use of Ranged Specialization (difficult to achieve max bonus threshold).


I'm excited to see the Starsector team tackling this ship concept and see how different it may end up from how it's been done so far.

I think what you're describing is generally true but that's where the ship system comes in. If it's not a mobility system (and I kind of doubt it would be), you can get very creative in tackling the problem of hyper-specialization vs. generalist. Imagine, if you will, a ship system that modifies the damage of the Large Mount to Energy. If you have a HE weapon, you use it against Shields, if you have a Kinetic weapon, you use it against Armor so that the ship isn't completely toothless against whatever it isn't specialized in (Mjolnir might just get 2x EMP damage or something). Or, if there was a specialized AAF variant that only boosted the Large Mount but did so at +75% ROF/75% flux redux. Suddenly a Hephaestus is putting good pressure on shields or that Mk. IX is lobbing tons of "decent" projectiles against armor. Storm Needler makes Remnants weep and so on. Point being, you can become pretty exotic with a ship like this because you're starting with a clear "specialist" role in mind and there's not many other directions you can go in.

But, as I said, I think what you've said is generally true. Kinetics will be preferred for the most part if the secondary battery is just a bunch of Small Mounts but I could still see the value of putting HE on a ship like this in a fleet setting. DP cost will also be a factor because if I can get a few of these, I can really tailor them to a fleet role and deploy them judiciously. If the Sunder is any indicator, longer-range Destroyers are still quite welcome in late-game fleets as fire support.

[Inhilicon]

These are really cool, I'm looking forward to using and fighting them! Starsector is the best, no contest, I do attest.

[Dri]

Oh nice, Burn Drive going back to how it was when it first released. Was sad when you could no longer cancel it early...

Hopefully those side turrets on the new frigate can aim behind it, else Salamanders gonna have a fun time with it.

[Alex]

I appreciate the feedback re: the large ballistic destroyer; some stuff to consider for sure.

Regenerating ammo ballistics were very good, and I think they got given up on *way* too quickly. It provides so many interesting levers for balance and ways to differentiate ballistics more than the current stats. You run into a lot of "what is even the difference between these small kinetics" without it.

It's just a fairly massive balance undertaking, since adding this to ballistics is a baseline nerf, so would need to come with some corresponding buffs, and changing an entire lineup like that... balance things get extremely complicated if trying to do a broad swath of things at once. I think if - if I was going to do this - I'd look at a few weapons where it makes good sense and could be handy. For example, I could see doing this with the Thumper, which could use a bit more help anyway (which adjustments offer a good opportunity to provide), and the clips mechanic fits with its general theme of being bursty.

Not actually sure about the small kinetics - to me they're all very distinct. There's the pretty bad one, the one that'd be ok if its accuracy wasn't terrible, the solid reliable one, and the burst one. (And, hopefully, the first two will be more usable now. I forget if I mentioned it, but the Light ACs got a flux efficiency boost, too.)

And they happen to also combo very nicely with damper fields and provide a good outlet to stop the traditional low-tech face-hugging technique from being unstoppable.

(That last part is more an SO thing, right?)

These are really cool, I'm looking forward to using and fighting them! Starsector is the best, no contest, I do attest.

Hopefully those side turrets on the new frigate can aim behind it, else Salamanders gonna have a fun time with it.

Indeed they can. But with DF and Insulated Engines - not to mention RFC - it can actually also just tank them.

Another thing I didn't mention about the Vanguard is that the missile-holding slots are currently composite. I'm not 100% sure on sticking with that, but it might be interesting for a few builds (probably mainly SO), but still.

[Helldiver]

And the hellbore is cheap, both in terms of OP and in terms of flux load. I'd expect to see exactly the opposite of what you describe: a hull with a large and some smalls would tend towards hellbore + railguns or light needlers (or, flux permitting, Mjolnir), while ones with medium slots or good numbers of missiles would be able to consider kinetic large options.

Railguns and Light Needlers have noticeably shorter range than the Hellbore and Hephaestus they'd go along with, which is the worst case for a kinetic+HE combo. Medium ballistics have HVDs (superior range and hits first, ideal for kinetic damage) and HACs (at least closer in range to heavies than what lights get).

I think what you're describing is generally true but that's where the ship system comes in.

Fosho, that's also where I think a solution could come (or a hullmod).

If the Sunder is any indicator, longer-range Destroyers are still quite welcome in late-game fleets as fire support.

I only mentionned the issues of ballistic support destroyers.
The Sunder definitely works as a support ship but it's a very different discussion IMO since it is one of energy weapons, with different weapons and ship synergies. Energy has "no travel time 1000 range support beam" options for all mount sizes, while larger energy gun ships fighting alongside a support Sunder may often mount high-DPS lower-range energy guns - such that a Sunder with a Tach Lance and Grav/Ion beams can instantly and easily apply all its support beams simultaneously to a target that an Aurora or Fury is engaging because it actually range -matches or outranges these bigger allies even with hullmods.
Beam guns' nature also means it can apply these support weapons to enemies reliably even when supporting smaller allies that will buzz about near the targets (where AI hesitates to fire ballistics due to friendly-fire risk).

Ballistics don't have such ideal support scenarios, which is why I'm curious to see what kind of new things (weapons, hullmods, ship systems etc) could be used to make a hypothetical heavy mount ballistic support destroyer work really well - although there's no obligation for such a ship to exist

Spoiler

also pls make frigate/destroyer fire pass above/under friendly cruisers/capitals and vice versa pls pls pls

[close]

[Draba]

To the point of flux being both defensive and offensive, I think perhaps this mechanic doesn’t hold up to scrutiny when one entire line of ships is based around poor flux management and high armor. Why would anyone design a low tech ship with shields, knowing that having shields puts the ship at great risk of being overloaded? I feel like a competent low tech designer would focus on armor and systems that improve armor without trying to jerry rig on a system that works poorly for the ship, introduces the risk of being overloaded, and only has a marginal benefit of absorbing light fire, while simultaneously limiting damage output?

Well - beam weapons and HE missiles/torpedoes exist, and are extremely well countered by even weak shields, while also countering armor. If we're talking vs high-tech, energy weapons are also countered by weak shields reasonably well, which is particularly important vs large hits. So, I really can't agree here. Shields on low-tech are obviously less universally useful, but they're also *critical* when they are, since they extend the life of armor by absorbing high-damage hits. The decision for when to use them is more complicated than it is for high tech, so if anything, the mechanic produces more interesting decisions for low tech.

Related to HE, wanted to mention shield modulation's special effect in case it's not on your radar.
The AI is prone to firing HE missiles into shields and it feels real bad when they do practically nothing.
Extra penalty does reward skill both in handling shields and explosive weapons but IMO HE hitting shields is punishment enough.
Could be better to give the AI a hand by changing it.


Also shield-related, if you are considering a minor nerf to high tech hardened shields hullmod might be part of that.
Something like 15-20% would probably still make it an automatic builtin choice for most ships, but makes armor bricks comparatively stronger.