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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: A Tale of Two Tech Levels  (Read 34962 times)

FooF

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2021, 03:24:46 PM »

Quite elegant solutions to the "Low Tech Problem" but I'm afraid you've set a precedent that makes thematic sense across all Low-Tech: Rugged Construction and Damper Field instead of shields. I know that probably goes too far (and you'd have to give the Mora Burn Drive!) but what a different style of play Low Tech would be given those base parameters. That's all I'll say about that but my mind is going in a lot of directions about how that could work.

Anyway, I love the Vanguard already not only because it's novel but because it looks like it already has a solid role in my fleet. How would you compare it to the similar Centurion? That, too, is an underrated ship that tends to stay in my fleet even mid-to-late game.

The Eradicator is a strange-looking ship. At first I though it was a kitbashed Fury but seeing them next to one another, maybe not so much. AAF is nice and I look forward to seeing this in action, especially with all the pew-pew it's going to do. I do agree that we need a Large Ballistic cruiser somewhere but this wasn't it.

The Tempest change is very outside-the-box and I like it. I don't think the drones regenerate all that fast so they're not going to be a reliable source of extra damage. It also makes one consider boosting the Replacement Rate, which was never an issue on the Tempest before. I'm just very glad the drones didn't go away. They're a unique addition to the line-up and gives the ship some character.
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IonDragonX

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2021, 03:29:00 PM »

Buff to the Hound?! Praise Ludd!!
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Alex

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2021, 03:42:23 PM »

Quite elegant solutions to the "Low Tech Problem" but I'm afraid you've set a precedent that makes thematic sense across all Low-Tech: Rugged Construction and Damper Field instead of shields. I know that probably goes too far (and you'd have to give the Mora Burn Drive!) but what a different style of play Low Tech would be given those base parameters. That's all I'll say about that but my mind is going in a lot of directions about how that could work.

You know, I was thinking about Rugged Construction on the burn drive ships at one point. The thought being, "burn drive gets ships destroyed, so make that hurt less". But with the changes to burn drive, that didn't make sense the same way - but it *did* for shieldless ships. Also, it would've pigeon-holed them into whatever skill ends up boositing junkfleets. If you have a whole lineup of ships like that, then a junkfleet skill kind of has to be based around them.

Damper Field on an Onslaught... I don't even want to imagine how long that would take to destroy! It'd be a real beast, though. And yeah, that's a fun combination of things to imagine. Still... "flux doesn't matter for defense" is, I think, a bit much to do to a broad swath of ships.

Anyway, I love the Vanguard already not only because it's novel but because it looks like it already has a solid role in my fleet. How would you compare it to the similar Centurion? That, too, is an underrated ship that tends to stay in my fleet even mid-to-late game.

I think it's a more offensively-capable version of the Centurion that will get disabled more. For reference, with no officers, Vanguards can take, say, an Aurora + a Fury + a Medusa when at even DP, while sustaining some losses. I haven't tried it, but I suspect Centurions couldn't do that.

The Eradicator is a strange-looking ship. At first I though it was a kitbashed Fury but seeing them next to one another, maybe not so much. AAF is nice and I look forward to seeing this in action, especially with all the pew-pew it's going to do. I do agree that we need a Large Ballistic cruiser somewhere but this wasn't it.

(Half-thinking of a low-tech destroyer build around a large slot - sort of a Sunder in that sense, but with some things that make it a different concept...)

The Tempest change is very outside-the-box and I like it. I don't think the drones regenerate all that fast so they're not going to be a reliable source of extra damage. It also makes one consider boosting the Replacement Rate, which was never an issue on the Tempest before. I'm just very glad the drones didn't go away. They're a unique addition to the line-up and gives the ship some character.

*thumbs up* I wasn't thinking about that aspect of it, but yeah, using it, I'm just naturally watching the replacement rate like a hawk. Which, maybe not great if it was across the board, but it seems like a nice bit of variety for one ship to bring.


Buff to the Hound?! Praise Ludd!!

Indeed! I'd love to see it and the Cerberus see more combat use. And, heck, I suspect it might see more early game use in general, since the easy-to-acquire recoveries from pirate fleets will now be worth something.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2021, 03:59:01 PM »

Oh yes, the Paragon. *pats nerf bat* I think replacing its ship system with a flare launcher - not active, mind, just the regular kind - would be an interesting sidegrade as well.
I'm sorry but WHAT? Please PLEASE tell me that is a joke! Fortress shield is a MAJOR part of the Paragon's identity. And replacing it with flares seems like a double barrel "F*** YOU!!" to it and those that like it. The ships would have to be COMPLETELY changed in order for the system change to be even remotely worth it
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AcaMetis

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2021, 04:02:24 PM »

Unless someone can seriously call going from Fortress Shield to basic Flares a "sidegrade" with a straight face...
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IonDragonX

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2021, 04:02:45 PM »

Indeed! I'd love to see it and the Cerberus see more combat use. And, heck, I suspect it might see more early game use in general, since the easy-to-acquire recoveries from pirate fleets will now be worth something.
Thank you for answering my next question! I like to watch 'Necromunda' runs where you only keep what you kill. The Cerberus, Hound and Vanguard are going to do more for that playstyle. The old Recovery Operations used to have +25% chance to recover disabled ships after battle. Nothing really filled that space except the SP.

BTW, I'm still hoping that you pulled out L5 and I5 tier, to make a different thing with them.
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Draba

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2021, 04:05:46 PM »

(Half-thinking of a low-tech destroyer build around a large slot - sort of a Sunder in that sense, but with some things that make it a different concept...)
Just do it!

A ballistic+missile ship above Hammer that doesn't handle like a brick was a great addition.
It'd be nice to have more options for playing around with the L ballistic slot, too.

Really like the AAF/burn drive split too, very different playstyles when controlled by the player.

Oh yes, the Paragon. *pats nerf bat* I think replacing its ship system with a flare launcher - not active, mind, just the regular kind - would be an interesting sidegrade as well.
I'm sorry but WHAT? Please PLEASE tell me that is a joke! Fortress shield is a MAJOR part of the Paragon's identity. And replacing it with flares seems like a double barrel "F*** YOU!!" to it and those that like it. The ships would have to be COMPLETELY changed in order for the system change to be even remotely worth it
Put the pitchfork down, that was a joke :)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 04:17:51 PM by Draba »
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Arcagnello

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2021, 04:07:29 PM »

Removing Fortress shield from the Paragon and giving it flares instead would equal to Removing the Thermal Pulse Cannons from the Onslaught and swapping them out for Mining Blasters.

I..don't think it's a good "sidegrade". The Fortress Shield is what makes the Paragon worth 60 Deployment Points in the first place. What would removing it even achieve? The Paragon itself is already heavily struggling to stay useful after the dawn of the Overridden, Officered Monitors with Wolfpack tactics and integrated hullmods as main tanks of a fleet.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 04:09:10 PM by Arcagnello »
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Alex

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2021, 04:16:28 PM »

I'm sorry but WHAT? Please PLEASE tell me that is a joke! Fortress shield is a MAJOR part of the Paragon's identity. And replacing it with flares seems like a double barrel "F*** YOU!!" to it and those that like it. The ships would have to be COMPLETELY changed in order for the system change to be even remotely worth it

Is joke

(Sorry ;D)

Removing Fortress shield from the Paragon and giving it flares instead would equal to Removing the Thermal Pulse Cannons from the Onslaught and swapping them out for Mining Blasters.

Mining Lasers, maybe.

BTW, I'm still hoping that you pulled out L5 and I5 tier, to make a different thing with them.

:-X

A ballistic+missile ship above Hammer that doesn't handle like a brick was a great addition.

To be fair, if we're talking about the Eradicator, it handles more like a half-brick. One thrown at a pretty good velocity, but still.
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Wyvern

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2021, 04:17:45 PM »

Damper Field on an Onslaught... I don't even want to imagine how long that would take to destroy! It'd be a real beast, though. And yeah, that's a fun combination of things to imagine. Still... "flux doesn't matter for defense" is, I think, a bit much to do to a broad swath of ships.
Hm, could we make Shield Shunt replace the shield with Damper Field?* (It'd probably need Shield Shunt to be a more expensive hull mod, and it'd probably need to be a nerfed version of the Damper Field, but I think that'd make that hull mod a lot more viable without needing to rely on the current implementation of Derelict Contingent.)

* Edit: or install a damper field right-click on ships like the Hound that don't have a right-click system already.
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Draba

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2021, 04:21:48 PM »

To be fair, if we're talking about the Eradicator, it handles more like a half-brick. One thrown at a pretty good velocity, but still.
The step up from Hammerhead was a Dominator, so will take the ~70(-ish, maybe) speed half-brick any day of the week :)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 04:24:02 PM by Draba »
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2021, 04:22:18 PM »

Flares are far too powerful for a D-tier ship like the Paragon.
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Dread Pirate Robots

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2021, 04:30:23 PM »

(Half-thinking of a low-tech destroyer build around a large slot - sort of a Sunder in that sense, but with some things that make it a different concept...)

Full-think it! Vanilla needs a couple more large ballistics imo and upgunned destroyer is a lot of fun for the player.

I'd love to try the damper-shields on a couple of low tech ships. It might be a bit much on an Onslaught like you said, but on a Dominator? That definitely might make the 25 DP seem more worth it! Very excited about the changes.
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Warnoise

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2021, 04:30:54 PM »

I wish the new damper shield stuff would also be equipped to the onslaught and the domknator. Or perhaps could be added as a hullmod
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2021, 04:32:35 PM »

I'm sorry but WHAT? Please PLEASE tell me that is a joke! Fortress shield is a MAJOR part of the Paragon's identity. And replacing it with flares seems like a double barrel "F*** YOU!!" to it and those that like it. The ships would have to be COMPLETELY changed in order for the system change to be even remotely worth it
Is joke
(Sorry ;D)
Oh thank Ludd! Don't scare me like that!

Edit: IS it even possible to add a ship system as a Right Click System via a normal hullmod?
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