Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: 1 ... 12 13 [14] 15 16 ... 18

Author Topic: A Tale of Two Tech Levels  (Read 34970 times)

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 894
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #195 on: June 06, 2021, 02:27:06 PM »

Kiters gonna kite. But brawlers don't really exist apart from the Harbinger. They were balanced out of the game.
Could you elaborate on this point? I don't consider Harbinger to have its playstyle be any different to phase frigates, which is just unphasing, using the ship system, unloading guns, then phasing again, like a really big bomber.

Its system removes the target's shield and prevents usage of weapons. It becomes the same thing as the kiting. Steady but surely you can kill anything even if it has much better stats.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7174
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #196 on: June 06, 2021, 02:40:56 PM »

It is not about specific builds. It is about the fact that kiting is implemented fully, without limits and a ship with range and speed advantage is guaranteed to win even against way more powerful enemy. But brawling is limited. There is no specific "brawling build" responsible for the same level of absolute advantage as the kiting one. It is all about stats. Even the Safety Overrides. No specific weapon, hull mod or system what guarantees victory if the ship with it managed to close the range.

Kiters gonna kite. But brawlers don't really exist apart from the Harbinger. They were balanced out of the game.

So are you then claiming that the Conquest is the only viable capital ship because it has the longest range + speed combo with Gauss cannons? Or that Falcons are best in class because of their speed + range? Sunders must be better than Hammerheads, because they can have ranged up to 1550 while Hammerheads are limited to 1350, while having the same speed. All those poor high tech frigates like the Scarab and Tempest must only be viable with beams because brawling is dead, and Odysseys can't compete at all what with their poor range...

I'm sorry, but thats just not true and everyone knows it. Kiting Conquests, Falcons, and Sunders can be pretty strong in the right circumstance, but they aren't be all end all ships, and close range high tech frigates are very strong right now.
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 894
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #197 on: June 06, 2021, 02:54:55 PM »

I'm claiming that game lacks the universally accessible brawling mechanic as opposed to kiting.
Logged

Yunru

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1560
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #198 on: June 06, 2021, 03:05:41 PM »

I'm claiming that game lacks the universally accessible brawling mechanic as opposed to kiting.
I believe that's called "the opponent running out of space."

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 894
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #199 on: June 06, 2021, 03:17:39 PM »

I'm claiming that game lacks the universally accessible brawling mechanic as opposed to kiting.
I believe that's called "the opponent running out of space."

For that you need numerical superiority.
Logged

Yunru

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1560
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #200 on: June 06, 2021, 03:19:41 PM »

I'm claiming that game lacks the universally accessible brawling mechanic as opposed to kiting.
I believe that's called "the opponent running out of space."

For that you need numerical superiority.
No, just enough to surround your foe. Doesn't matter how many you trap in your net as long as they're all actually in it.

Locklave

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #201 on: June 06, 2021, 03:22:41 PM »

AI isn't very keen on tanking without shields, ...
For the sake of the example, imagine all lowtech ships got 500000 armor. Suddenly they smash everything so it's not a concept that fundamentally can't work.

For the sake of example you go to an insane extreme no one in this thread has suggested is required. More crazy armor also has nothing to do with what I said and is an attempt to change the subject to something absurd you can easily counter.

The AI can't do armor tanking. Your argument about armor tanking only applies to player control, which isn't the point at all.

...but it definitely drops them to avoid hits that won't damage armor too much...

This is a mechanic used for retreating by the AI and it's trading armor to avoid overloads. It isn't used aggressively so bringing it up has nothing to do with my counter to your original incorrect statement.

There is a lot of hyperbole about low tech/destroyers/whatever being useless, a good portion from you. Compared to that any position will look conservative :)
High tech wouldn't become bad with a nerf or if low got a buff, nobody said that.

Please refer me to my post that said they were "useless" because I've been clear that they are inferior to high tech during this entire thread, which is accurate. I even stated they are viable. I have not been hyperbolic, perhaps I used overgeneralizations but that isn't being hyperbolic. If you can't defend your statements please don't just make things up to portray me as unreasonable. This is a well veiled ad hominin attack. Paint me as unreasonable and not my points.

There are posts in here expressing concerns that Low tech will get overbuffed. There are posts suggesting ships like specifically the Tempest are not overpowered currently. Actual posts in this thread. That is the reality.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2021, 03:51:48 PM by Locklave »
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7174
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #202 on: June 06, 2021, 03:33:46 PM »

I'm claiming that game lacks the universally accessible brawling mechanic as opposed to kiting.
I believe that's called "the opponent running out of space."

But there already are many accessible mechanics to stop kiting: fighters or fast frigates to bog a kiter down (or just blow it up) and the 0 flux boost on the brawler, or EMP weapons like salamanders or ion beams to knock out engines, or ship acceleration on a closing course, or systems like plasma burn, burn drive, phase teleporter, maneuvering jets... There are probably others that let a close range brawler get in close that I'm not thinking of. In this very blog post it talks about why burn drive is supposed to be a tool to do exactly this, why it currently fails, and the proposed solution to make it better at the job. "Hit the enemy when they can't hit back" is a core strategy sure, but there are other strategies that work just fine. There's been a lot of attention on ships that I'd label as "brawlers" being dominant this patch: high tech frigates that just take all fire on the shield and don't even need to maneuver away to vent most of the time; SO ships with the new PPT increasing skills to make them last longer; Omegas and Radiants don't kite either, they close in and overwhelm!

When I did my low tech playthrough the fleet was absolutely vulnerable to ships that were fast and/or longer ranged because of the lack of elite frigates, so I used interceptors for the same role and missiles for quick kills. The tools were there, I used them, and the fleet kept winning.
Logged

Locklave

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #203 on: June 06, 2021, 03:50:11 PM »

I think we have to see how the new burn drives play out against kiting.

Lumen is the king of annoying kiting ships that make your fleet have to chase it around the map btw.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7174
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #204 on: June 06, 2021, 04:02:44 PM »

I think we have to see how the new burn drives play out against kiting.

Lumen is the king of annoying kiting ships that make your fleet have to chase it around the map btw.

Agreed, especially because of its long PPT, that thing is a right pain. When doing high tech frigates I send some tempests after them with glee but for other tech levels I used Thunders.
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 894
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #205 on: June 06, 2021, 04:09:52 PM »

I'm claiming that game lacks the universally accessible brawling mechanic as opposed to kiting.
I believe that's called "the opponent running out of space."

But there already are many accessible mechanics to stop kiting: fighters or fast frigates to bog a kiter down (or just blow it up) and the 0 flux boost on the brawler, or EMP weapons like salamanders or ion beams to knock out engines, or ship acceleration on a closing course, or systems like plasma burn, burn drive, phase teleporter, maneuvering jets... There are probably others that let a close range brawler get in close that I'm not thinking of. In this very blog post it talks about why burn drive is supposed to be a tool to do exactly this, why it currently fails, and the proposed solution to make it better at the job. "Hit the enemy when they can't hit back" is a core strategy sure, but there are other strategies that work just fine. There's been a lot of attention on ships that I'd label as "brawlers" being dominant this patch: high tech frigates that just take all fire on the shield and don't even need to maneuver away to vent most of the time; SO ships with the new PPT increasing skills to make them last longer; Omegas and Radiants don't kite either, they close in and overwhelm!

When I did my low tech playthrough the fleet was absolutely vulnerable to ships that were fast and/or longer ranged because of the lack of elite frigates, so I used interceptors for the same role and missiles for quick kills. The tools were there, I used them, and the fleet kept winning.

Fighters, missiles and long weapons are forms of kiting. Frigates are dependent on the stat check just as Enforcer and whatever else is trying to close the range.

You are missing the point.

When kiter got its speed and range advantage it got itself the guaranteed victory. When so called "brawler" closed the range it got some short window of opportunity for the attempt at bursting down the target. And the target can have simply better stats and can burst down our poor "brawler" instead. Because it got pack of papier-mâché at discount and not something useful.

Whole "they close in and overwhelm" thing have a very predictable result of forming a clear tier ladder of ships. With anything but the top ones being a junk serving the sole purpose of being overwhelmed.
Logged

Lucky33

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 894
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #206 on: June 06, 2021, 04:11:36 PM »

I'm claiming that game lacks the universally accessible brawling mechanic as opposed to kiting.
I believe that's called "the opponent running out of space."

For that you need numerical superiority.
No, just enough to surround your foe. Doesn't matter how many you trap in your net as long as they're all actually in it.

You can't "surround your foe" when you have only single entity. And if you have more it becomes numerical superiority.
Logged

Yunru

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1560
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #207 on: June 06, 2021, 04:42:48 PM »

I'm claiming that game lacks the universally accessible brawling mechanic as opposed to kiting.
I believe that's called "the opponent running out of space."

For that you need numerical superiority.
No, just enough to surround your foe. Doesn't matter how many you trap in your net as long as they're all actually in it.

You can't "surround your foe" when you have only single entity. And if you have more it becomes numerical superiority.
Uh... No?
I have, say, 5 ships. I face a Fleet of 15. I clearly don't have numerical superiority, being outnumber 3:1, and yet I can surround them to negate kiting attempts.

Hiruma Kai

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 878
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #208 on: June 06, 2021, 05:29:30 PM »

For anybody in the "it is fine" gang.

Would you be so kind as to provide the Enforcer variant capable of completely dominating this thing here:

"Completely dominating" will be "winning three fights on autopilot in a row without taking hull damage".

No mods. No officers. No built-ins. No Weapon Drills. 70 % CR. Flux regulation and +10 caps/vents is OK.

Hmm... 24,444 effective shield strength.  So, 12 sabots?  Maybe 8 Harpoons for the hull?  I would expect an Expanded Missile Racks + ECCM + 2x Sabot (12 total) +2x Harpoon (12 total) + long range weapon of your choice (Heavy Autocannon maybe) all linked together in one fire group would have a solid chance of alpha striking the thing down. Certainly such an Enforcer build would likely one shot the HVD kiting build that can handle that Fulgent.

I may have to try that out.  Also, Enforcer could possibly include some cheap fighters to draw fire in the initial exchange as well.
Logged

Draba

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
    • View Profile
Re: A Tale of Two Tech Levels
« Reply #209 on: June 06, 2021, 05:52:03 PM »

AI isn't very keen on tanking without shields, ...
For the sake of the example, imagine all lowtech ships got 500000 armor. Suddenly they smash everything so it's not a concept that fundamentally can't work.
For the sake of example you go to an insane extreme no one in this thread has suggested is required. More crazy armor also has nothing to do with what I said and is an attempt to change the subject to something absurd you can easily counter.

The AI can't do armor tanking. Your argument about armor tanking only applies to player control, which isn't the point at all.

Spawn a sim onslaught and shoot it, it will often drop shields when it's not escaping.
AI is not very good at tanking with armor, but it does try to do it.
Spoiler
[close]

The 500000 armor example is there to demonstrate that there is a point where armor+hardflux range advantage on ballistics (lowtech) is definitely better than high (shields+speed), even with current mechanics.
I think that's relevant, don't see the need to go off the handle about it.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 12 13 [14] 15 16 ... 18