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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24)

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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.3.2 - more apocalyptic settings  (Read 148136 times)

IonDragonX

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #90 on: December 18, 2021, 11:16:09 AM »

Wow, it's been a while since I had so much feedback after one release. Something to note though - Starpocalypse is a meme mod, or at least started as one. All.of it features are low hanging fruits, or are implemented in a cheaty way.
Having said that, seeing that the mod is slowly getting a loyal fan base, I will be improving certain aspects of it.

I am... actually surprised to hear that you started this as a "meme mod". I truly thought that this was a mod to support the whole storyline! The sector is struggling to survive a power vacuum and a devolution of technology. There would not be a 'open market' that would allow a military advantage to randos. The military establishment cannot be optionally ignored. Just choose to be 'on the inside' or 'on the outside'; not neither/both if you are in front of witnesses. With your mod, the contact system becomes more vital. Committing to a side is key and 'all of them are wrong anyway'. I'll pick Independents, thanks.
I have always appreciated your modding. Part of that is Starpocalypse and stelnet feel, to me, like they should be a part of the base game because of the setting. Kudos!

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Doesn't completely removing the ability to access the black market with your transponder on make the 'suspicion' mechanic useless?
Shy Black Market will be changed, you will be able to access it with transponder on, but items and ships that fall under military regulations will be illegal. This is a buff from previous behaviour where they were straight up removed or moved to military market. It is possible to revert this (even now) by disabling shy market in settings and adding back black market to csv.

I can see going back to the "suspicion level:extreme" original design. Here's a suggestion that wouldn't be easy but maybe for the future, On the market screen that says 1)Comms 2)Bar 3)Trade etc. could you add an option? Other mods have done it. I suggest this option added: Misdirect Suspicion (1 SP). It doesn't have to show if you have zero at the time. The effect would be that your Suspicion level is back to zero and stays there for the rest of the month but a random NPC hates your guts with a passion.

Quote
Hmm, I'm not nearly as big a fan of the nanoforge thing. Like, it's a significant part of the setting that a few polities have access to the substantially better manufacturing standards than the rest of the sector, and their ships reflect this.
Happy to reimplement this. One thing I was thinking about was replacing pristine with corrupted, or just giving corrupted to other factions, or just removing all but giving a nano forge like bonus anyway (maybe smaller).

I know that the economy of goods gets thrown off if you remove those kind of items so I'm in agreement. May I suggest a doctrine change of the offending faction if dmods must be in the fleets? Maybe just nerf the Industry skills directly? To prevent the player from raiding away the items, perhaps a fat defense fleet be permanently chained to the planet if they exist. Remember the tutorial mission had a defense force permanently circling Ancyra? Something like that. Starpocalypse already is adding defensive buildings so why not?
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SpaceDrake

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #91 on: December 18, 2021, 08:36:02 PM »

Yeah, it's funny: I can totally see how this began life as a meme mod, but the thing is, you've addressed something that I think has bugged a lot of players for a while. The Sector might be a bit of a wild frontier, but especially in the modern game, it's clear that the major faction-polities should have more than enough organization and power to prevent the sale of dangerous materiel to independent, unaffiliated spacers. The way it's set up now is in service of making sure folks, especially newer players, get into Spaceship Fights™ as easily as possible, but I much prefer adding a bit of verisimilitude to the game by having access to military technology be significantly more tightly controlled, unless you go out of your way to travel to obviously extra-legal locales.

On that note... I've actually warmed up extremely quickly to 2.0's current system of handling black markets, to the point that I went and rewrote/expanded the market tooltips in my own game to reflect how it works. I actually very much like the idea that, especially at the worlds of the larger multi-polity governments, even trying to contact general underground markets to move things in bulk while you're being tracked and monitored is basically impossible. Yes, it kind of overrides Starsector's base game logic for black markets, but to be honest, that logic has always struck me as a little dubious anyway, especially at larger planets that have broader controls and actual military bases. Getting in touch with the "black market" of Chicomoztoc, or Kazeron, or Sindria, or any Diable base, or any Imperium world, or what have you, should be really hard and require a lot of stealth. And since a lot of those planets/bases are difficult to approach in that manner, the rewards should be commiserate with the challenge (e.g., it's time to buy SOME EFFIN' GUNZ). For the cherry on top, this even ties into the lore for both some of the vanilla markets (like all the Sindrian ones) and in certain mods, which use the market description text to posit that if you're going in undetected, what you're accessing as the black market is completely separate from the standard commercial markets of that given polity/volume. So I guess you can put me in the column for keeping it the way it is, but I there are definitely multiple approaches to this idea that are equally valid. (And, most importantly, these all make bar encounters a lot more valuable, because they're a much easier way of getting your hands on hardware, and it makes face-to-face interaction feel a lot more valuable because it's just that bit much harder for The Man to clamp down on.)

As far as the nanoforges go... I do get that the real thing we're trying to address here is "the solution for player industrial output is to steal the Chico or Kazeron pristines, or any other pristines a mod may add". The design intent is clearly for pristine forges to be either something a player finds rarely during sector exploration (with one not remotely guaranteed to appear in a game outside of maybe the historian) or commit heavy resources to trying to acquire an existing one. It's just that Alex has underestimated what "heavy" resources should be; it's too easy to steal one, and with story points as of .95 (a system I otherwise like a lot) you can even avoid detection for it. It's just far too easy to acquire one and start pooping out constant perfect capital ships.

So while it's probably significantly more work, my suggestion would be to make a change to raid behavior. Specifically, it should be much, MUCH harder to steal a Colony Item via raiding; I'm talking like "a raiding power equivalent to at least upper-tens of thousands of marines is required for it", since the opponent is going to throw literally everything they have at trying to stop you, and also there should be no story point option for avoiding consequences, because of the sheer scale of the operation required.

And those consequences should be the equivalent of a saturation bombing. Or worse.

Like, think about it: you are dismantling, stealing, and putting at risk an absolutely critical piece of infrastructure that is helping to keep the Sector going, literally for your personal benefit. It's the sort of *** that the sector spent much of the earlier cycles of post-Collapse history trying to stop when fighting maniacs like Loke. In doing this, you are bringing The Bad Old Days back to the Sector, and literally everyone should hate your guts for it and try to destroy you for doing it.

So I think that would make for a more engaging solution to the Nanoforge Problem™: the player should still be able to do it, but it should require truly epic resources and a fleet engineered specifically for that objective, and the consequences for doing so should be fairly dire. It makes finding your own nanoforge a much more attractive proposition.

Either way, I'm glad you're so engaged with the mod, Jaghaimo! Hopefully this feedback is helpful. ;D
« Last Edit: December 18, 2021, 08:52:09 PM by SpaceDrake »
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Oni

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #92 on: December 18, 2021, 09:14:35 PM »

Yeah, it's funny: I can totally see how this began life as a meme mod, but the thing is, you've addressed something that I think has bugged a lot of players for a while. The Sector might be a bit of a wild frontier, but especially in the modern game, it's clear that the major faction-polities should have more than enough organization and power to prevent the sale of dangerous materiel to independent, unaffiliated spacers. The way it's set up now is in service of making sure folks, especially newer players, get into Spaceship Fights%u2122 as easily as possible, but I much prefer adding a bit of verisimilitude to the game by having access to military technology be significantly more tightly controlled, unless you go out of your way to travel to obviously extra-legal locales.

On that note... I've actually warmed up extremely quickly to 2.0's current system of handling black markets, to the point that I went and rewrote/expanded the market tooltips in my own game to reflect how it works. I actually very much like the idea that, especially at the worlds of the larger multi-polity governments, even trying to contact general underground markets to move things in bulk while you're being tracked and monitored is basically impossible. Yes, it kind of overrides Starsector's base game logic for black markets, but to be honest, that logic has always struck me as a little dubious anyway, especially at larger planets that have broader controls and actual military bases. Getting in touch with the "black market" of Chicomoztoc, or Kazeron, or Sindria, or any Diable base, or any Imperium world, or what have you, should be really hard and require a lot of stealth. And since a lot of those planets/bases are difficult to approach in that manner, the rewards should be commiserate with the challenge (e.g., it's time to buy SOME EFFIN' GUNZ). For the cherry on top, this even ties into the lore for both some of the vanilla markets (like all the Sindrian ones) and in certain mods, which use the market description text to posit that if you're going in undetected, what you're accessing as the black market is completely separate from the standard commercial markets of that given polity/volume. So I guess you can put me in the column for keeping it the way it is, but I there are definitely multiple approaches to this idea that are equally valid. (And, most importantly, these all make bar encounters a lot more valuable, because they're a much easier way of getting your hands on hardware, and it makes face-to-face interaction feel a lot more valuable because it's just that bit much harder for The Man to clamp down on.)...

Yeah, but you don't just buy weapons on the black market. There's more legal goods and supplies that you're just avoiding paying tariffs on which become rather important if you're playing more of a merchant/smuggler character. Which is why I suggested earlier about introducing some bar encounters earlier that can give you temporary access to the BM, since while bar based arms merchants can deal with your guns issue they can't deal with bulk goods (or drugs and heavy armaments).

... As far as the nanoforges go... I do get that the real thing we're trying to address here is "the solution for player industrial output is to steal the Chico or Kazeron pristines, or any other pristines a mod may add". The design intent is clearly for pristine forges to be either something a player finds rarely during sector exploration (with one not remotely guaranteed to appear in a game outside of maybe the historian) or commit heavy resources to trying to acquire an existing one. It's just that Alex has underestimated what "heavy" resources should be; it's too easy to steal one, and with story points as of .95 (a system I otherwise like a lot) you can even avoid detection for it. It's just far too easy to acquire one and start pooping out constant perfect capital ships.

So while it's probably significantly more work, my suggestion would be to make a change to raid behavior. Specifically, it should be much, MUCH harder to steal a Colony Item via raiding; I'm talking like "a raiding power equivalent to at least upper-tens of thousands of marines is required for it", since the opponent is going to throw literally everything they have at trying to stop you, and also there should be no story point option for avoiding consequences, because of the sheer scale of the operation required.

And those consequences should be the equivalent of a saturation bombing. Or worse.

Like, think about it: you are dismantling, stealing, and putting at risk an absolutely critical piece of infrastructure that is helping to keep the Sector going, literally for your personal benefit. It's the sort of *** that the sector spent much of the earlier cycles of post-Collapse history trying to stop when fighting maniacs like Loke. In doing this, you are bringing The Bad Old Days back to the Sector, and literally everyone should hate your guts for it and try to destroy you for doing it.

So I think that would make for a more engaging solution to the Nanoforge Problem%u2122: the player should still be able to do it, but it should require truly epic resources and a fleet engineered specifically for that objective, and the consequences for doing so should be fairly dire. It makes finding your own nanoforge a much more attractive proposition.

Either way, I'm glad you're so engaged with the mod, Jaghaimo! Hopefully this feedback is helpful. ;D

That's an idea I can get behind, stealing major parts of infrastructure should be significantly difficult and cause political problems... unless you're taking it from pirates or something. Nobody likes them after all.
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Szasz

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #93 on: December 20, 2021, 02:17:54 AM »

This mod is actually a credit saver. It guarantees good performance ships for cheap on every market with only a single d-mod.
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IonDragonX

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #94 on: December 21, 2021, 04:27:09 PM »

Shy Black Market will be changed, you will be able to access it with transponder on, but items and ships that fall under military regulations will be illegal. This is a buff from previous behaviour where they were straight up removed or moved to military market. It is possible to revert this (even now) by disabling shy market in settings and adding back black market to csv.
Yo, dude. Both SCC and Alex are talking about Shy Black Market:

I would have made pirates target successful traders, but I'm not Alex.
Same. I'm still hoping to add that to ruthless sector some day, or make a new mod for it. I'm also a big fan of how Jaghaimo made black markets only accessible when transponders are turned off in Starpocalypse.
FWIW, I've got some notes in this general direction, especially vis a vis smuggling and the risks (or lack of risks) inherent in it.

Alex must really like the game concept!
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #95 on: December 21, 2021, 06:08:48 PM »

This mod is actually a credit saver. It guarantees good performance ships for cheap on every market with only a single d-mod.

There is a possibility that this is just an unintentional side effect of mod...
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SpaceDrake

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #96 on: December 21, 2021, 10:00:31 PM »

This mod is actually a credit saver. It guarantees good performance ships for cheap on every market with only a single d-mod.

There is a possibility that this is just an unintentional side effect of mod...

It is a decent point, though. For example, an Imperium Matriarch should be around 680-700k to buy new from the military market, but because of how d-mod pricing works, you can get it for only a bit more than 600k. It's a pretty significant discount.

I wonder if Starpoc should adjust d-mod pricing for ships, too? Or perhaps adjust how it scales.
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Jaghaimo

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #97 on: December 22, 2021, 12:32:25 AM »

I have so far avoided changing the bade game settings. The ability to adjust purchase and sell prices, as well as dmod discount is in Starsector data/config/settings.json (not Starpocalypse one).
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Szasz

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #98 on: December 22, 2021, 12:52:20 AM »

This mod is actually a credit saver. It guarantees good performance ships for cheap on every market with only a single d-mod.
There is a possibility that this is just an unintentional side effect of mod...
It is a decent point, though. For example, an Imperium Matriarch should be around 680-700k to buy new from the military market, but because of how d-mod pricing works, you can get it for only a bit more than 600k. It's a pretty significant discount.

I wonder if Starpoc should adjust d-mod pricing for ships, too? Or perhaps adjust how it scales.
The issue at its core is the game treating d-modded ships all the same as far prices go. It doesn't matter how much of them plague a hull, 1 d-mod translates to the same discount as 6. (Rarely a few hundred credit difference rears its head for god knows why but that doesn't count.)
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #99 on: December 22, 2021, 01:30:11 AM »

The issue at its core is the game treating d-modded ships all the same as far prices go. It doesn't matter how much of them plague a hull, 1 d-mod translates to the same discount as 6. (Rarely a few hundred credit difference rears its head for god knows why but that doesn't count.)

Hmmm, this might be more of a core game issue.  Maybe drop something on suggestions forum?  Be a nice change from the econ debate exploding right now...
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Jaghaimo

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #100 on: December 22, 2021, 05:17:26 AM »

The issue at its core is the game treating d-modded ships all the same as far prices go. It doesn't matter how much of them plague a hull, 1 d-mod translates to the same discount as 6. (Rarely a few hundred credit difference rears its head for god knows why but that doesn't count.)

This sounds like a bug. Vanilla setting states it is a multiplier per dmod, I'll see how it works exactly and report as a bug if necessary.
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robepriority

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #101 on: December 27, 2021, 08:24:07 AM »

Hmm... I haven't been here in a while so I might be talking out of hand, but is the mod index still being updated? I didn't see this on here.

Jaghaimo

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #102 on: December 27, 2021, 08:26:08 AM »

Both of my mods are there, just not marked as 0.95.1a:
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[0.95a] Starpocalypse by Jaghaimo
[0.95a] Stellar Networks by Jaghaimo
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IonDragonX

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #103 on: December 27, 2021, 08:55:36 AM »

Hmm... I haven't been here in a while so I might be talking out of hand, but is the mod index still being updated? I didn't see this on here.
@Thaago
Could you update the Mod Index, please?
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boogiebogus

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Re: [0.95.1a] Starpocalypse 2.0.0 - more apocalyptic settings
« Reply #104 on: December 28, 2021, 06:41:19 PM »

I feel like while removing nanoforges from planets more or less works out, i think it would be better if the synchotron cores stayed. It leads to planets with high command being incredibly ***, with massive fuel shortages (holy ***, sindria is not okay) - not to mention fuel prices being very high.

Sometimes, i stare at how many credits it takes to refuel, and i cry.
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