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[WeiTuLo]

I have been poking around with fighters (not bombers). What mission sets do you usually give your fighters?

Here is some of what I have found so far. B is Broadsword, C is Claw, G is Gladius, L is Lux, S is Spark, T is Thunder, W is Warthog, Wp is Wasp and Ta  Talon. Full effect for Hangar/DP limited buffs when present unless otherwise specified. All tests set to autopilot at beginning unless otherwise specified:

Mission Pilum Heron 70 CR, Expanded Deck Crew (EDC), Hardened Subsystems (HSS), 20 vents rest caps no captain or skills 540 seconds PPT. Triple Wasp (Wp) resulted in loss (1 try).
Time to Kill Sim Falcon(seconds):

TTK1_AVG   Count   Fighters
54.0   5   GWW
61.0   2   BLW
61.0   2   LTW
66.0   5   BWW
67.0   2   BTW
68.0   2   GLL
68.5   2   WpWW
70.5   2   SWW
70.5   2   LSW
70.8   5   TWW
72.5   2   LLT
76.0   2   BBW
80.0   2   BCW
80.0   2   LLL
80.5   2   WWW
86.5   2   CWW
88.5   2   BLT
90.0   2   BLL
90.5   4   LLS
96.5   2   LLWp
107.0   2   BBL
138.5   2   SSS
142.0   2   BBT
167.5   2   BBB
173.0   2   GGG
238.3   3   TTT
401.0   1   CCC

Mora with 85% CR, 0 caps/vents, EDC, Carrier Group, Fighter Uplink. 1 is no officer, 2 is officer with Strike Commander Elite (SCE), Missile Specialization Elite (MSE) and Systems Expertise (SE). Generally 5 tries each, less for triple Broadsword.
Time to Kill Sim Falcon(seconds):

1   2   F
83   66.4   TWW
86.4   67.4   GWW
90   68.8   WWW
94.4   70   BWW
106.2   69.6   BTW
101.8   75.6   LTW
108.8   72.4   TTW
113.2   77.4   LLL
189.2   117.6   TTT
202   137.3 BBB

Heron with 85% CR, 0 caps/vents, EDC, Carrier Group, Fighter Uplink. 1 is no officer, 2 is officer with Strike Commander Elite (SCE), Missile Specialization Elite (MSE) and Systems Expertise (SE). 5 runs each.
Time to Kill Sim Falcon(seconds):

1   2   F
51.4   43.80   WWW
57.6   46.60   TWW
60.2   47.60   BWW
61.6   47.40   GWW
69   50.20   LTW
69   51.40   TTW
76.8   53.60   BTW
79.2   56.40   LLL
141   101.80   SSS
149.2   104.20   GGG
160.8   101.20   TTT
155.6   110.80   BBB
187   132.20   WpWpWp

Two Mission Condors, 70 CR with just EDC, no other buffs, vs Sim Falcon:
Time to Kill Sim Falcon(seconds):

TTK1   F
64.2   WWWW
68   BWBW
68.2   LLLL
76.4   BWWW
85.4   BLLL
125   LSLS
135.4   BBBB
146   SSSS



Overall, the regular Falcon disadvantages bare hull fighters because of the ion beams. Despite this, the Warthogs do very well vs bigger, slower ships. Broadswords are very interesting, they have 80 flux capacity with 10 flux dissipation, so they can do 2.86 seconds of full 312 kinetic DPS before dropping to 82 sustained kinetic DPS.

More Data (added on 2021-06-12 YYYY-MM-DD):

Heron with 85% CR, 0 caps/vents, EDC, Carrier Group, Fighter Uplink. 1 is no officer, 2 is officer with Strike Commander Elite (SCE), Missile Specialization Elite (MSE) and Systems Expertise (SE). 3 is 0.91a with EDC, 4 is 0.91a with EDC and officer with all buffs. 5 is 0.95 RC15 with SCE, MSE, and SE.  5 runs each.
Time to Kill Sim Falcon(seconds, this is the previous officered Heron but with more data):

1   2   3   4   F
51.4   43.8         WWW
57.6   46.6         TWW
60.2   47.6         BWW
61.6   47.4         GWW
69.0   50.2         LTW
69.0   51.4         TTW
79.2   56.4   63.0   52.7   LLL
76.8   53.6         BTW
141.0   101.8   88.4   67.0   SSS
149.2   104.2   170.0   90.5   GGG
160.8   101.2         TTT
155.6   110.8         BBB
187.0   132.2   336.0   106.5   WpWpWp



TTK 2 Wolves and 2 Lashers in sim:

1   2   5      F
54.8   55.8         WpWpWp
n/a   n/a   55.8      SWpWp
n/a   n/a   60.0      SSWp
64.2   66.4   68.2      LWpWp
n/a   n/a   71.4      LSWp
82.0   79.4         TTWp
94.2   75.2   76.8      LLWp
90.0   85.4         GGG
92.4   89.2         TaTaTa
100.0   85.6         SSS
116.0   98.4         TTW
118.2   104.8         BBB
122.6   109.2         TTT
153.4   105.8         WWW



TTK Doom in sim:

1            F
154.0            LWpWp
182.0            SWpWp
212.0            WpWpWp
251.0            SSS
#DIV/0!            LLL


TTK Aurora in sim:

2            F
40.6            WWW
45.8            GWW
49.8            TWW
53.0            BWW
73.2            BTW
86.4            LTW
130.6            WpWpWp


TTK Brilliant in sim (from sim_opponents_dev.csv):

2         F
95.6         WpWpWp
99.3         BWW
102.5         TWW
116.0         WWW
143.0         BTW
154.0         LTW
159.0         GWW
180.8         SSS
212.0         LLL

Piloted SO Hammerhead (all buffs except derelict contingent and damage control) plus allied officered carrier with SCE, MSE, and SE. D stands for Drover, H stands for Heron, and C stands for Cobra. 5 runs each.

Vs Sim Brilliant (from sim_opponents_dev.csv):

Ally   2   F
H   18   WpWpWp
D   19   CC
H   23   SSS
H   23   WWW
None   25   HH only



Vs Sim Radiant (from sim_opponents_dev.csv, has 2 locusts, 2 autopulse, 4 ion beams):

Ally   2   F
H   26   TWW
D   26   CC
H   36   BWW
H   43   WpWpWp
H   44   SSS
H   46   WWW
H   46   LLL
None   50   HH only
H   51   TTT

Let me know if there are any questions. Hard to format the tables and my shorthand can be hard to understand at times.

[Realm]

Generally? My targeting priority is:

• Escort ships about to get spammed by missiles/fighters
• Pressure Phase Ships
• Pressure Frigates
• Assault Carriers w/ weak defenses (Condor/Colossus/Heron/etc.)
• Assault Cruisers/Destroyers currently fighting my line vessels, especially when their flux is high

Generally the goal is keeping my fleet alive by focusing on air superiority (handling enemy fighters/missiles), then clearing or distracting threats. Phase vessels in particular really hate being targeted by fighters, usually distracting them until they're dead or distant. I rarely target capital vessels with good PD unless they're 60-70% or higher on flux, and engaging one of my officered cruisers/capitals.

[Thaago]

Really interesting, thanks for doing the work to test all this!

I haven't played around with really trying to optimize fighters, but I have used a pair of Condors with Thunders to take out fast frigates from extreme range, usually while they are engaging another of my frigates (which acts as the spotter). Its a bit overkill to be throwing 2 10 DP carriers + a frigate (probably a 4dp one with no officer) at lone enemy frigates, but it cleans them up very fast even if they have an officer, and with skills the thunders are going at silly high speeds (585 speed with no officer, scaling down as the fleet's flight decks exceed . The strategy is a bit command point intensive (1 needed per kill), but its effective at killing any frigate outside of a death ball. And then afterwards thunders are just useful against all targets because of ion.

I also used the following triple on a Mora before I swapped over to bombers: Gladius, Claw, Talon. I like it because it was OP cheap and high speed (again for catching frigates). I used that with your mission sim Heron and got the following times in 3 trials:

GCTa
94, 130, 144
avg: 122.7

So not particularly great, though the Falcon is very locked down (all weapons and engines disabled much of the time) and would be easy prey for anything else. Its pretty clear that the lack of 'heavy' fighters means that getting a kill takes a bunch longer (which makes sense: both less OP spent and faster for catching frigates/going to new threats).

Replacing the claw with a thunder gave:
GTTa
137, 133, 120
avg: 130

A bit surprising, as in your tests thunders generally outperformed claws.

Edit: decided to test against a sim hyperion, again with a Heron with same build as you as its a fast frigate of equal DP:
GCTa
58, 48, 52
avg: 52.7

GTTa:
36, 35, 51
avg: 40.7

Thunders outperform claws by a lot and its easy to see why when watching: an extra set of machine guns instead of pure ion gets the shields down faster, and once the shields are down high tech frigates just pop.

TaTaTa:
56, 58, 48
Avg: 54.0

Surprisingly not terrible for the cheapest possible wing combination, I expected worse.

[Megas]

In summary, the cowardly AI that constantly backpedals and refuses to fight!  That often means frigates and destroyers.

[Thaago]

No, not that even in the slightest. Those frigates are attacking mine, I just call in thunder strikes to kill them quickly and efficiently.

[WeiTuLo]

Ahh, well when protecting your fleet from lighter ships and phase ships, it makes sense to use fast and light fighters. So not the Warthog.

For the Thunders vs Claws, there are the two ion beams on the falcon. With Gladius/Claw/Talon, there are 12 hulls, 6 of which are shielded. The ion beams barely do anything to the claws' shields. With Gladius/Thunder/Talon, there are 8 hulls, none of which are shielded. The Thunders tend to charge in first for some reason, so they may be the ones emped first at which point they slam into the shields at high speed and die, or they fly away spinning reducing their effectiveness. Or it could be due to random variation.

Fighters have felt much weaker this patch. Sparks aren't so strong anymore. 10-20 DP is a lot to pay for slow ships that do not carry that much in fighters. Perhaps a lighter, faster, lower DP carrier that could only carry fighters (no bombers allowed).

[Realm]

Ahh, well when protecting your fleet from lighter ships and phase ships, it makes sense to use fast and light fighters. So not the Warthog.

On the other hand if you're using Fighter Uplink with the full bonus, Warthogs do rather nicely enough. What really holds them back from cleaning up phase ships is the engagement range.

[WeiTuLo]

Yep. Their 130 base speed really hurts, but they are very strong now.

[halloween20]

is there somewhere a lexica for that many abbreviations? 

as a new player i have it realy hard to understand the "old guys" in here...

[Hiruma Kai]

is there somewhere a lexica for that many abbreviations? 

as a new player i have it realy hard to understand the "old guys" in here...

The in game codex.  They're simply using the 1st letter of each fighter name.  You can ignore the bombers for this, since they're discussing Fighters/Interceptors specifically.

Broadsword = B
Claw = C
Gladius = G
Talon = Ta
Thunder = T
Warthog = W
Wasp = Wp

The hull mods were first letters of each word in the name
EDC = Expanded Deck Crew
HSS is a bit rough, but could be (H)ardened (S)hield(s) or (H)ardened (S)ub(s)ystems, given both only have two words.  Given the PPT (Peak Performance Time) is 540, it must be the latter.

[WeiTuLo]

is there somewhere a lexica for that many abbreviations? 

as a new player i have it realy hard to understand the "old guys" in here...

The in game codex.  They're simply using the 1st letter of each fighter name.  You can ignore the bombers for this, since they're discussing Fighters/Interceptors specifically.

Broadsword = B
Claw = C
Gladius = G
Talon = Ta
Thunder = T
Warthog = W
Wasp = Wp

The hull mods were first letters of each word in the name
EDC = Expanded Deck Crew
HSS is a bit rough, but could be (H)ardened (S)hield(s) or (H)ardened (S)ub(s)ystems, given both only have two words.  Given the PPT (Peak Performance Time) is 540, it must be the latter.

Yep, this is correct. I should have explained it better.

[halloween20]

hehe...
feels like meeting two people that have similar work who start to throw technical terms at each other happy about "common things". You as someone not knowing this feels like totally at the wrong place.

nvm... thx for the explenations

[WeiTuLo]

Yeah, I have a lot of data, hard to turn it into words. Wasps are pretty good vs light armor stuff until they run into PD. Then splat, because 100 hull and 10 armor with no shield.

[garter_snake]

Is there a way to get AI herons to move up and fight with line ships while sending out fighter strikes?  Running bombers I don't mind them staying back, but with a fighter loadout there's enough spare OP for flux and guns that I kinda want it to move up.

[WeiTuLo]

You can try giving it an aggressive or reckless officer. Sometimes the aggressive ships will try to hit the enemy with flak cannons as well instead of staying at maximum weapons range.

In sim testing, I can see that an aggressive Heron tries to stay away from Brilliants, but is happy to engage single destroyers like Fulgents or Enforcers, and will even engage cruisers like Falcons and Eagles.

In ship_data.csv, under column AU "hints", the Heron just has "CARRIER", while the Mora and the Legion have "CARRIER, COMBAT, NO_AUTO_ESCORT", so that might explain the different behavior.