Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6

Author Topic: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?  (Read 5689 times)

Rondson

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2021, 01:30:04 AM »

Have you considered applying more Paragons?
Logged

Madskills

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2021, 01:33:03 AM »

> This really feels like you've got a solution in search of a problem.
This is really not the case. The end-user problem is quite simple: after finishing starsector for the first time, I went on the modding forums to get more content to extend my playtime for the next playthrough. But instead my next playthrough was even shorter because I got to the same point (being incredibly overpowered compared to the rest of the galaxy, reaching the end of the storyline) even faster. So instead of getting more playtime, I got less, because the game became more inflated sideways rather than becoming deeper. So I just get more ways to get to the same depth in the end.

If you think that my reasoning as to how to solve this problem is inadequate, you're free to come up with your own vision of how it should be solved, but the problem is definitely there.
Logged

Snrasha

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 695
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2021, 01:34:04 AM »

For my part about these thing:

Never balance your mod with the rarity of your weapon, ships... because there are many mods which add means to acquire these things.
ITU/DTC hullmod is a rare case displayed on vanilla. If mods do it, they are wrong because we have the proof with ITU/DTC hullmod (i do not need to explain).
But yeah, more mods, same if they add more weak versions of vanilla stuff, they are a bit different and can be often better.
And with the issue than some weapons from some mods are powerfull with ships from others mods ! Because modders often balance around theirstuff and vanilla only. But i diverge. Just more contents implies less difficulty.

I found the Knight Templar, the best example of what to do if you want a overcheated mod which add contents. You cannot get these blueprints, they hate you, these ships cost expensive to maintain (now we can compare with the automated skill), but you can often use their expensive weapon with some builds. And they are also fun to fight. What i love the most is than they auto-explode for keep people to steal their ships.

Also, i wish to point than for many developpers (what you can call "bad developper") so modders, without feedback of others, this is very hard to balance your mod, because your tests of your mod are biased.


For more contents, you need to install Nexerelin and mods which do not add only ships, weapon.
Logged
I am pretty bad on english. So, sorry in advance.

Gladiator Society
Add battle options on Com Relay/ Framework for modders for add their own bounty.

Sanguinary Autonomist Defectors A fan-mod of Shadowyard.

Dark.Revenant

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2702
    • View Profile
    • Sc2Mafia
    • Email
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2021, 01:39:51 AM »

> This really feels like you've got a solution in search of a problem.
This is really not the case. The end-user problem is quite simple: after finishing starsector for the first time, I went on the modding forums to get more content to extend my playtime for the next playthrough. But instead my next playthrough was even shorter because I got to the same point (being incredibly overpowered compared to the rest of the galaxy, reaching the end of the storyline) even faster. So instead of getting more playtime, I got less, because the game became more inflated sideways rather than becoming deeper. So I just get more ways to get to the same depth in the end.

If you think that my reasoning as to how to solve this problem is inadequate, you're free to come up with your own vision of how it should be solved, but the problem is definitely there.

You installed mods that didn't promise anything of the sort.  Traditional faction mods offer more ships and weapons and planets, not a longer playtime.  People install them because they want variety, maybe a different flavor or playstyle, not because it's literally going to add story content.  It's not a problem if a project's goal doesn't align with your vision of what it should be; that's merely a difference of opinion.
Logged

BreenBB

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 84
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2021, 02:01:37 AM »

About mods, authors often overnerf their stuff, they rarely introduce Paragon level of power ships, adds many weaker weapons, and it makes game easier, since NPC load-out get more bloated, and for example remnant have chance instead of Heavy Blaster, or Phase Lance get some weak weapons like Degraded Particle Beam, or another unefficient weapon.

Another reason, often powerful ships introduced in the mods instead of being used by NPCs regularly are used as optional challenge, like boss battles in Seeker mods, HWB and IBB bounties and such, they don't attack in their own. Remants also optional challenge since they wont leave their systems, their raids in Nexerelin is rare, they only being threat in Ruthless Sector mod where they appear in hyperspace.
Logged

Tartiflette

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3354
  • Toss a coin to your Modder, O' valley of plenty
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2021, 02:07:00 AM »

The end-user problem is quite simple: after finishing starsector for the first time, I went on the modding forums to get more content to extend my playtime for the next playthrough. But instead my next playthrough was even shorter because I got to the same point (being incredibly overpowered compared to the rest of the galaxy, reaching the end of the storyline) even faster. So instead of getting more playtime, I got less, because the game became more inflated sideways rather than becoming deeper. So I just get more ways to get to the same depth in the end.
Wouldn't that simply be caused by having more experience with the game and already knowing what to do?
Logged
 

Madskills

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2021, 02:28:40 AM »

You installed mods that didn't promise anything of the sort.  Traditional faction mods offer more ships and weapons and planets, not a longer playtime.  People install them because they want variety, maybe a different flavor or playstyle, not because it's literally going to add story content.  It's not a problem if a project's goal doesn't align with your vision of what it should be; that's merely a difference of opinion.
This is not my personal opinion by the way: we're playing starsector with a bunch of mates (parallel, independent playthroughs with different mod sets) and there's also a bunch of youtube let's players that have a similar opinion. So it'd be fine if I was a single lunatic with a weird taste, but it does seem to be a trend.

Again, I'm not trying to undermine any modder's contribution. I'm trying to be constructive and provide feedback from player's perspective that hopefully can give modders a view from different angle.

Another reason, often powerful ships introduced in the mods instead of being used by NPCs regularly are used as optional challenge, like boss battles in Seeker mods, HWB and IBB bounties and such, they don't attack in their own. Remants also optional challenge since they wont leave their systems, their raids in Nexerelin is rare, they only being threat in Ruthless Sector mod where they appear in hyperspace.
I agree. It's understandable that SEEKER's bosses are not made to be recoverable by the player due to obvious reasons (which is good), but it's also sad that they're completely passive and there's absolutely no reason to actually fight them aside from bragging rights and some loot opportunities. I also don't really have an amazing alternative solution how to do it instead.

Wouldn't that simply be caused by having more experience with the game and already knowing what to do?
This is certainly true to some degree. But it's definitely different from many other games. Take factorio for example: a vanilla playthrough of factorio takes me at most 5-10 hours. However, installing a single "Space Exploration" mod extends amount of content to at least 200 hours or so. Because SE not only makes vanilla goals way harder to reach, it also adds way more content after actually reaching vanilla endgame (it's where technically the mod starts). And this is the way most factorio overhaul mods work: they add more endgame content and/or make vanilla goals more challenging to reach. Krastorio, Industrial revolution -- you name it. And it's de-facto how mods in other games work, they are typically designed for players who already know the game as the back of their hand and they provide them with more content and challenge.

I understand that sandboxy nature of starsector is different from said factorio and the same rules don't apply exactly the same way. However, the problem is definitely there and it feels like barely anybody even attempts to address it.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 03:18:56 AM by Madskills »
Logged

Dark.Revenant

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2702
    • View Profile
    • Sc2Mafia
    • Email
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2021, 02:49:22 AM »

Vanilla's actual endgame doesn't exist yet, so any mod that attempts to add its own version of an endgame now is going to be in a world of hurt (i.e. redoing everything) when vanilla finally gets around to it.  If it were trivial to make pressing, player-driving endgame content, it wouldn't be such a big deal—but that kind of content is extremely challenging and time-consuming to create.

For reference, I work full time.  I can work on Starsector mods maybe a couple of hours at a time, if I get to it at all on a given day.  So it has taken me well over a month to only get about one third (maybe charitably 2/5) of the way through a full-sized story quest.  Just one quest.  It's not even an endgame quest and doesn't really add meta-level game mechanics; it's just a standard content quest, albeit a large, particularly open-ended and dynamic one.  And I'm hardly what one could call a novice modder.

As a result, it's a matter of extreme impracticality to focus efforts on most types of endgame content.  Doing it anyway, knowing that you're going to have to throw away months of work, is a measure that few are willing to take.
Logged

BreenBB

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 84
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2021, 03:24:52 AM »

I agree. It's understandable that SEEKER's bosses are not made to be recoverable by the player due to obvious reasons (which is good), but it's also sad that they're completely passive and there's absolutely no reason to actually fight them aside from bragging rights and some loot opportunities. I also don't really have an amazing alternative solution how to do it instead.

I personally make some edits in this mod, I added boss ships from Seeker to Remnants, and Cataclyzm and his fleet to Pirates and Luddic Path, although they very rare to sight, and make them recoverable, also I did this with unrecoverable vanilla Guardian and Tesseract too, yes, it makes game easier, but first I just personally not fan of NPC specific stuff, and second, I make them appear in NPC fleets as return.

My main issue with mods what they rarely add Paragon, Aurora, Doom or Tempest power level stuff, and when you have mods with alot weaker stuff, its just bloats game with unneeded content instead of adding variety, because if some stuff is weaker that vanilla, its just makes no sense to use them. I really wish to see more stuff like this, sadly its made only as sprites: https://imgur.com/a/TSm3iuX

Another thing in Starsector what I personally not much fan off, is endgame, when you get Heavy Industry with alot of blueprints where you can make almost any stuff you want, and really big income, you lost reason to do missions and bounties, and game usually got boring after some time, destroying factions just for reasons still get boring.

Also another problem with Starsector is what world itself somewhat stale, Nex fixes that for some extent, but still, one of examples of games where world feels alive is russian game called Space Ranges, it has common enemy which is with whom all faction fight, and it can destroy all sector without player help, have Rangers NPCs which act like player, take missions, procure equipments etc, text quests which is really interesting compared to Galatia Academy story line which is just plain whole of text, and many of these features I think can be adapted in Starsector. Like common enemy, captains NPC which act like player, takes missions, procure ships, and when killed respawns like player with small fleet.
Logged

KDR_11k

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 582
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2021, 03:37:26 AM »

About mods, authors often overnerf their stuff, they rarely introduce Paragon level of power ships, adds many weaker weapons, and it makes game easier, since NPC load-out get more bloated, and for example remnant have chance instead of Heavy Blaster, or Phase Lance get some weak weapons like Degraded Particle Beam, or another unefficient weapon.

Another reason, often powerful ships introduced in the mods instead of being used by NPCs regularly are used as optional challenge, like boss battles in Seeker mods, HWB and IBB bounties and such, they don't attack in their own. Remants also optional challenge since they wont leave their systems, their raids in Nexerelin is rare, they only being threat in Ruthless Sector mod where they appear in hyperspace.
The other aspect for weaker mod factions is the conventional faction sequence: If you start with a single faction design it's gonna be fairly straight-forward and anything you add afterwards will have to differentiate by adding new tricks and lose some conventional strength in return so the initial faction ends up being the pure strength one.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FactionCalculus

When a faction is designed around a specific playstyle it's gonna be weaker in the general Starsector style than the vanilla factions.

Ultimately no faction is gonna make the game harder unless you pick a fight with it if the faction is designed like the vanilla ones where you start more or less friendly with them. The Starlight Cabal (Underworld mod) is one of the few that starts out hostile even without you picking a commission but they usually just want to steal something from your inventory rather than go for a straight up fight because facing a fleet composed of souped up phase and high tech ships would be unwinnable in the early game. And while the ARS spawns bases like those colony threat factions it isn't an actual colony threat. But I think nobody would want another faction causing colony threats to pop up...

Though I find that even a commission doesn't cause much fighting since the factions rarely stray from their own territory and the wars are relatively short-lived so unless I'm planning on using the war as a chance to go raiding with less rep impact I'm likely not around any of the enemy fleets during the time of the war.
Logged

Tartiflette

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3354
  • Toss a coin to your Modder, O' valley of plenty
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2021, 03:51:36 AM »

The only issue I see here is mod selection. There are mods that add breath of content (ship packs and faction mods), there are mods that add depth (Starship Legend), there are mods that add length (Adjusted Sector), and there are mods that add difficulty (New Game +). And a few that add a bit of everything (Nexerelin). If you are unsatisfied with your modded experience, you just need to be more picky, and more importantly you should adjust things yourself by looking at the game's and mods' settings files. Try raising the tariffs to 50%, and lower the amount of XP received if you want to lengthen your campaign. These settings are there to accommodate players like you.

I understand that sandboxy nature of starsector is different from said factorio and the same rules don't apply exactly the same way. However, the problem is definitely there and it feels like barely anybody even attempts to address it.
This is the crux of the matter: a significant part of your complaints go against some of the core mechanics of the base game. Almost no content is gated behind skill, progression or time checks. There are no "impending doom" events with a ticking clock to not alienate the players that want to play at their own pace. If you know how the game works, you can reach the vanilla end-game in three hours flat and mods have nothing to do with that. If you need more challenge, you'll have to set your own rules.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 04:21:34 AM by Tartiflette »
Logged
 

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3173
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2021, 04:13:00 AM »

It sounds more that you have an issue with vanilla progression, which is a fine complaint and an issue I have with the game myself, but it has nothing to do with mods (how to win in vanilla in one simple step: get a Doom). Or rather, you are disappointed that the majority of the mods are content mods (compatible with one another) and not progression/difficulty mods. I think it's like that for two reasons: one, it's the simplest (only minimal coding required, until you want to get custom weapon effects, hullmods or ship systems), two, it's the most compatible kind of a mod (there are at least some people who like to play with all the mods at once). Those mods don't make the game much easier (they still do, because you get more options for optimisation), but the biggest issue is with vanilla progress.

And Omega isn't that hard, nor are its weapons that good, anyway.

Madskills

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2021, 05:26:11 AM »

It sounds more that you have an issue with vanilla progression
I don't think vanilla progression is bad itself. It's just very basic/shallow. It's when people add content, they often add it in one and the same direction instead of expanding the game in all directions, this is where it gets sub-optimal, I think.

And Omega isn't that hard, nor are its weapons that good, anyway.
Sure, it's not. But it's also something mods practically don't have? There's like 1.5 mods that even attempted this sort of exploration-style progression as opposed to the classic walmart-style progression.

Try raising the tariffs to 50%, and lower the amount of XP received if you want to lengthen your campaign. These settings are there to accommodate players like you.
ok, imagine logic like this applied to factorio:
- guys, I think the game is too short and simple, are there any mods that would make it deeper?
- sure, just edit this thing here to make your green circuit 10 times more expensive and edit here to make biters have 5 times more hp.

Point is, tweaks like that just make the game harder without adding any depth. It's like stretching the game instead of actually making it any deeper.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 05:30:43 AM by Madskills »
Logged

Tartiflette

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3354
  • Toss a coin to your Modder, O' valley of plenty
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2021, 05:36:42 AM »

Now you are complaining that any solution offered for every single individual issue do not solve ALL the issues at once.

You say the game is too short because mods give you too many optimization paths, the quickest way to address this is to slow down the progression. You complain that the game is too shallow but there are different mods that add new mechanics. You complain that the game is too easy, the most effective way to solve it is to use mods that increase the difficulty, mods that offer end-game challenges, tweak the settings, or to self-impose gameplay restriction.

Additionally, "depth" is such a very malleable and subjective notion that hardly tells anything specific. What is "depth" for someone becomes "grind" "bloat" or "annoyance" for another.

Almost everything more specific than "depth" you asked for that isn't already a thing is either incredibly time consuming and difficult to implement (if at all possible currently), deemed undesirable or not worth the effort by modders, or on the contrary as easy as a tweak in the setting files.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 05:53:26 AM by Tartiflette »
Logged
 

Chairman Suryasari

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 363
  • The Deployer of John Lennon's.
    • View Profile
Re: Why do most mods have to make the game easier?
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2021, 10:58:28 AM »

“If you try to please everyone, you'll end up pleasing no one.”

-Facebook mom.
Logged
"Kids under 13 shouldn't have access to the internet. if 10yo me were on tumblr and read about suicide and depression 5 hours a day, every day, god knows i would jump off a bridge if my parents ever yell at me."

-Some random Youtube comment on video about Sonic OC.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6