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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Hostile Activity (09/01/22)

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Author Topic: Fog of War on outer stars  (Read 996 times)

Astro_Marcus

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Fog of War on outer stars
« on: May 19, 2021, 07:31:09 AM »

It might be nice to enhance the "exploring" part of StarSector by having shrouded or "fog of war" on the outside of the big map.
Never know what you might uncover way out there on the fringes!
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Sutopia

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Re: Fog of War on outer stars
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2021, 08:00:59 AM »

1. The hyperspace map is well charted pre-collapse
2. System map is not charted if you have never been there
3. Sensor mechanics exist

I don’t even know what you are trying to suggest. There are already two layers of fog of war (2. and 3.)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2021, 08:02:59 AM by Sutopia »
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Fog of War on outer stars
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2021, 10:59:49 PM »

1. The hyperspace map is well charted pre-collapse
2. System map is not charted if you have never been there
3. Sensor mechanics exist

I don’t even know what you are trying to suggest. There are already two layers of fog of war (2. and 3.)

1.  Even if the map was well charted pre-collapse, space isn't static.  It is literally expanding and stuff in it moves, so long as the laws of physics matter (which, considering how the game treats black holes and some other stuff, physics aren't exactly real life).  But I will grant you that no star system has probably moved a statistically significant amount in 200 years, assuming only laws of physics and no sci-fi trickery/AI nonsense.  Plus, it's probably safe to assume that there are probably at least a few astronomers that still exist in the Persean Sector.
2.  Buuuut, assuming astronomers exist, you can still figure A LOT of stuff out given time and a powerful enough telescope (radio, normal, infrared, take your pick).  Or a scavenger might have already visited that arbitrary system and "charted" it (though admittedly the game so far doesn't allow a player to buy charts of unexplored systems).  So don't tell me that a system hasn't been charted if the player has never been there, just not charted by player (game bounties will at least tell you something about a nearby stellar object where bounty can be found).
3.  Sensor mechanics don't tell you c rap about a planet until you visit it (well, it used to, but that part of game seems to have been either dropped or skill-locked).  So not all sensor mechanics are created equal.  But admittedly, sensors probably do not pierce dimensional barriers (or whatever hyperspace is).
4.  Considering that this game is to some degree just JEWS Sid Meier's Pirates IN SPACE, I agree that having some type of fog of war on the outer unexplored parts of the hyperspace map would be valid, although would be nice to also have options to occasionally "purchase" (money, quest reward, battle victory lewt) fogged parts to reveal them so you don't have to literally visit every part of the damn sector to get rid of the fog of war.
4a.  If you don't get the Jews in Space reference, this will help:  https://youtu.be/ZAZhtT-dUyo
« Last Edit: May 19, 2021, 11:03:29 PM by slowpersun »
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Sutopia

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Re: Fog of War on outer stars
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2021, 11:30:14 PM »

Does it add any actual content to the game though?
Hyperspace map DOES NOT reveal any strategic resource or any useful information, so what's even the point?
You don't even see a damn beacon prior to visiting close proximity of a system. (Exactly played out by 2. and 3.)

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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Fog of War on outer stars
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2021, 03:30:19 AM »

Does it add any actual content to the game though?
Hyperspace map DOES NOT reveal any strategic resource or any useful information, so what's even the point?
You don't even see a damn beacon prior to visiting close proximity of a system. (Exactly played out by 2. and 3.)

It adds tension, fear of the unknown, and additional planning for how close one wants to get to the edge of the map.  Some might call it work, others fun.  Everything's relative.  As for "content" being added, it would add the ability to have unrevealed/partially revealed parts of the map be revealed.  Not all changes have to be additions.

And, to clarify, as far as I understand it, only near the edges of the map would be fogged, not everywhere outside of the core.  So you can actually explore deep space, not just visit star systems landmarks to check out the resources scenery.  Do I really have to quote Star Trek?  There is a mod that kinda already achieves a version of this, but visiting randomly generated dungeons systems via Gates is the best alternative I can think of.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 03:34:02 AM by slowpersun »
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Sutopia

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Re: Fog of War on outer stars
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2021, 08:09:41 AM »

You're not making an argument at all. There is no difference between fogging or not, so might as well just leave it be.

Bottom line,
Hyperspace map DOES NOT reveal any strategic resource or any useful information, so what's even the point?
I'm not at all excited to find a red giant or a black hole because it's the same as any other that's not fogged.
There is no tension; Even if the map doesn't have arbitrary fog the system content is ALREADY unknown ; It's not like minecraft having an artificial wall hiding a few thousands map width away.
Revealing the map does virtually NOTHING and is only extra complexity that doesn't add anything to the game but annoyance.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 08:17:06 AM by Sutopia »
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SCC

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Re: Fog of War on outer stars
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2021, 10:40:50 AM »

While I don't care about it as strongly, I agree with Sutopia that fog of war on hyperspace map won't do anything besides wasting time. The only substantial gameplay difference is whether a system has medium or high danger Remnants inside, and beacons are hidden from the start anyway.

IonDragonX

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Re: Fog of War on outer stars
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2021, 02:53:41 PM »

It might be nice to enhance the "exploring" part of StarSector by having shrouded or "fog of war" on the outside of the big map.
Never know what you might uncover way out there on the fringes!
I'd be totally behind this!
I even tried to mod it somehow but I have no idea what I'm doing.
It would even be nice to "find" surprise systems inside the larger nebulae.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Fog of War on outer stars
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2021, 03:32:21 PM »

While I don't care about it as strongly, I agree with Sutopia that fog of war on hyperspace map won't do anything besides wasting time. The only substantial gameplay difference is whether a system has medium or high danger Remnants inside, and beacons are hidden from the start anyway.

Yellow and orange stars are more likely to have habitable/low hazard worlds. Black holes and neutron stars are more likely to have research stations. Dense areas of the map are more likely to have a good world/system AND special stuff like a cryosleeper in the vicinity.

Hiding where, or even just what type, those stars are would change player behavior substantially and make simple exploration more rewarding. There would need to be 1-2 simple and easy ways to mass-explore constellations later on, though - like buying ship logs or sending exploration fleets out.
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KDR_11k

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Re: Fog of War on outer stars
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2021, 12:14:28 AM »

Hiding where stars are will just mean needing to comb the area until your sensor radius has reached every spot in it. The fuel mechanics aren't really meant for meandering around, trying to find the Anargaia Rift from Legacy of Arkgneisis just by flying around and looking for it will burn up a ton of fuel and a shrouded map would be similar. Fuel is balanced for knowing where you want to go and flying there.

Plus it's space, stars are visible from far away.
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JUDGE! slowpersun

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Re: Fog of War on outer stars
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2021, 02:07:29 AM »

You're not making an argument at all. There is no difference between fogging or not, so might as well just leave it be.

Bottom line,
Hyperspace map DOES NOT reveal any strategic resource or any useful information, so what's even the point?
I'm not at all excited to find a red giant or a black hole because it's the same as any other that's not fogged.
There is no tension; Even if the map doesn't have arbitrary fog the system content is ALREADY unknown ; It's not like minecraft having an artificial wall hiding a few thousands map width away.
Revealing the map does virtually NOTHING and is only extra complexity that doesn't add anything to the game but annoyance.
The map reveals relative distance and direction, you tool.  Plus star system density.  Admittedly, the map/intel screen doesn't measure ACTUAL distance since there is no means of measuring the radius of a circle (like a dam map and compass, but the compass from your geometry class, not a magnetic one).  In any case, traveling in straight lines is now rendered partially moot by deep hyperspace, but whether you go around or through deep hyperspace is your choice.

And the excitement isn't just about finding the star system, which I agree definitely gets tedious after a while.  It's about getting back.  You seem to be missing the point.  As for anyone that doesn't like it, I'm sure someone will immediately figure out how to turn it back off were such a feature to be implemented (if a toggle isn't included).  Gotta say, for someone who is so wedded to bashing the concept, surprised you didn't just suggest modding such a feature in to shut someone up (I'm assuming the game's code can handle such a mod, maybe it can't).  I dunno, maybe you've just turned thirteen.  Congrats on finally aging out of COPPA!

Plus, beacons are Bulls hit.  Live a little.  Though sadly without a notes function (which someone has definitely already suggested), beacons are kind of a necessary crutch.  But what, beacon systems are permanent homes to something that can't leave?  That's as weirdly arbitrary as black holes not being a death sentence, but even I accept that this game isn't intended to be entirely realistic.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 02:27:01 AM by slowpersun »
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Alex

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Re: Fog of War on outer stars
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2021, 04:07:06 PM »

I dunno, maybe you've just turned thirteen.  Congrats on finally aging out of COPPA!
...
Plus, beacons are Bulls hit.

Please don't resort to personal attacks, or try to bypass the profanity filter. This is an official warning.
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Sutopia

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Re: Fog of War on outer stars
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2021, 04:19:27 PM »


And the excitement isn't just about finding the star system, which I agree definitely gets tedious after a while.  It's about getting back.  You seem to be missing the point. 


I think you're the one missing the point. Let me elaborate:
How much time do you take to find the derelict mission objectives?
Especially the ones that only gives extremely vague description ("At a distance from star", those type)
It's at least manageable because a system is only so big. Far-reach Hyperspace is a different story.
You are already forced to almost plow through the entire system to just find the objective if you don't know how to use Neutrino detector, which is not fun,
you now expect people have fun to be required to plow through Hyperspace?

While I don't care about it as strongly, I agree with Sutopia that fog of war on hyperspace map won't do anything besides wasting time. The only substantial gameplay difference is whether a system has medium or high danger Remnants inside, and beacons are hidden from the start anyway.

Yellow and orange stars are more likely to have habitable/low hazard worlds. Black holes and neutron stars are more likely to have research stations. Dense areas of the map are more likely to have a good world/system AND special stuff like a cryosleeper in the vicinity.

Hiding where, or even just what type, those stars are would change player behavior substantially and make simple exploration more rewarding. There would need to be 1-2 simple and easy ways to mass-explore constellations later on, though - like buying ship logs or sending exploration fleets out.

As far as colony is concerned it's not an issue.
Accessibility is still king of profit so noone is gonna explicitly find a good colony in the far-reaching shrouds.
It's simply not worth it.
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Soda Savvy

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Re: Fog of War on outer stars
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2021, 04:42:55 PM »

Behold, it has already been done! To a degree at least.

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=18416.0

Not sure if it would still work with the current version though.

I recall it being a bit annoying after a while, basically turning the hyperspace map into a new and improved version of bobbing for sensor contacts.
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IonDragonX

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Re: Fog of War on outer stars
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2021, 08:18:35 PM »

Behold, it has already been done! To a degree at least.
https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=18416.0
Well, thats a mod and the suggestion applies to vanilla, but you are kinda right. It would make perfect sense to add full fog of war to the 'endless sectors' mod that I've seen lately.

However, its still different than the suggestion. The OP is smaller in scope, not asking to fog of war everything, just the edges of the map. (and in my case, the denser nebulas)
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