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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Hyperspace Topography (10/12/22)

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Author Topic: [0.95.1a] Musashi Manufactorum Ship and Weapon Packs 1.2.9  (Read 49960 times)

Arghy

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I've used all of the medium and smaller weapons extensively and i don't see a problem at all beyond the M rail gun costing the same as the hyper velocity while being slightly better than it. I'm just getting into large mounts but stat wise beyond increased range they don't look that crazy. I'll do a ton of simulation runs to see if i can cheese anything.

If anything this just might be a better argument to do more built in weapons for the main turrets while leaving the secondary weapons free to mess around with. You'd remove a ton of balance issues while having the ships perform as intended.

*Did abuncha simulation testing and i've come the conclusion that it's a horrible metric for testing. My ships won handily across the board against higher DP ships but that's because they have terrible loadouts. One conclusion i've come too is the BC's all could use a 10 DP increase because the hachiman for example can handle 40 DP capitals easily yet it's only 26. The cruisers and BC's are out performing their DP in cost but that's an easy fix of increasing that. The bigger capitals are going to be a little harder, the 50 DP battle carrier handily thrashed a 60 DP paragon and fiddling the DP isn't the answer because of the DP limit. The glass cannon concept is solid i feel, less flux to ensure that they must stay at range and exploit their chosen weapons rather than being able to stay at range and have enough flux to fire while keeping the shields up.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 02:00:32 PM by Arghy »
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Dranume

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This is the first time I hear that the flux cost is excessive. In my only mod playthrough, they are pretty good when used with the ships from this mod but kind of underpower with vanilla ships. I fear that buffing them might cause them to be too overpowered.

For the ignoring fighter, I will try to find a fix for it.

my perspective comes from firing full broadsides from the top 3 biggest guns in the mod..  im like "Holy ***! thats almost all my flux bar. "  ahhahahahahaahahahahah  it was just jarring for my play style, i like to get in with my big ships and knife fight the other ships.
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PuffyJelly

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I've used all of the medium and smaller weapons extensively and i don't see a problem at all beyond the M rail gun costing the same as the hyper velocity while being slightly better than it. I'm just getting into large mounts but stat wise beyond increased range they don't look that crazy. I'll do a ton of simulation runs to see if i can cheese anything.

If anything this just might be a better argument to do more built in weapons for the main turrets while leaving the secondary weapons free to mess around with. You'd remove a ton of balance issues while having the ships perform as intended.

*Did abuncha simulation testing and i've come the conclusion that it's a horrible metric for testing. My ships won handily across the board against higher DP ships but that's because they have terrible loadouts. One conclusion i've come too is the BC's all could use a 10 DP increase because the hachiman for example can handle 40 DP capitals easily yet it's only 26. The cruisers and BC's are out performing their DP in cost but that's an easy fix of increasing that. The bigger capitals are going to be a little harder, the 50 DP battle carrier handily thrashed a 60 DP paragon and fiddling the DP isn't the answer because of the DP limit. The glass cannon concept is solid i feel, less flux to ensure that they must stay at range and exploit their chosen weapons rather than being able to stay at range and have enough flux to fire while keeping the shields up.

Hey Arghy!

I kind of agree with you here. I feel like the hull/ships are pretty OP due to their built-in mods and armor and health. From my playthrough, the Bishamonten is on par with Paragon without a commander and it becomes much better with commander skills. Still, I usually go in without a shield to conserve flux economy and have enough firepower to pierce the fortress shield. Also, these ships don't do well against swarms. I think if I'm going to make adjustments it might be on flux, armor, and health pool.  :)
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PuffyJelly

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my perspective comes from firing full broadsides from the top 3 biggest guns in the mod..  im like "Holy ***! thats almost all my flux bar. "  ahhahahahahaahahahahah  it was just jarring for my play style, i like to get in with my big ships and knife fight the other ships.
[/quote]

Haha, those guns are quite hard to handle on other ships. It is my intention for those guns to have high flux to not make the ship too OP. I can try to reduce the flux cost of the weapons and flux capacity of the ships together - to help ease the use of weapons on other vanilla ships. I will need some testing on this before I make adjustments.
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Arghy

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An easy fix might be to reduce their range since all the ships have built in range increases so the weapons will be balanced on vanilla ships. A flux increase per shot might work too to keep the feel of big slow broadsides. The more i use the bigger ships the more i see potential problems haha i've watched a BC nearly kill a dominator in under 2 seconds because it was allowed to fire from zero flux. The large mounts definitely need to be looked at because on vanilla ships they're drastically out performing other large mounts.

I'm in love with the ebisu L though, a wondrous dedicated carrier that will get slaughtered if caught alone with enough OP to kit out with a ton of useful hullmods and a decent fighter/bomber wing. It works great with a fleet because it adds a ton of utility but if it gets out of position it will be dead very fast.
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PuffyJelly

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Okay, guys, I've done some extensive testing with tons of mods and I've made adjustments to the mod. I nerf all ships slightly in all parameters. Now they're slightly weaker but I think they're still stronger than most comparable ships. I've play around 8hrs with this update and I think it is quite balance. I hope everyone enjoy! And thank you for all the feed back.

BTW - if you update the mod, don't forget to remove the old Advance Targeting Core from your ship. It is what make your ship OP! :D
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Arghy

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Okay, guys, I've done some extensive testing with tons of mods and I've made adjustments to the mod. I nerf all ships slightly in all parameters. Now they're slightly weaker but I think they're still stronger than most comparable ships. I've play around 8hrs with this update and I think it is quite balance. I hope everyone enjoy! And thank you for all the feed back.

BTW - if you update the mod, don't forget to remove the old Advance Targeting Core from your ship. It is what make your ship OP! :D
Wooh! Nice, i'll give it some hours today and see if i catch anything.
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Watchin_Life_Go_By

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Any thoughts for Phase Ships as Submarines?
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PuffyJelly

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Any thoughts for Phase Ships as Submarines?

Yes, I have some thoughts on it. I saw a mod that does phase submarines a long time ago and it looks pretty cool. The issue is, I'm not a fan of phase ships and didn't play around with them much. It is kinda hard for me to balance them so I'm quite hesitant about the idea.
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PuffyJelly

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Re: [0.95.1a] Musashi Manufactorum Ship and Weapon Packs 1.2.5
« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2022, 12:05:20 PM »

Guys, after I nerfed the ship, they are damaged more often and with high CR deployment cost, they just ruined my campaign. I've adjusted the deployment cost a bit so they're not as lethal as before.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 12:07:58 PM by PuffyJelly »
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IGdood

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Re: [0.95.1a] Musashi Manufactorum Ship and Weapon Packs 1.2.4 - Balance update
« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2022, 07:27:25 PM »

Any thoughts for Phase Ships as Submarines?

Yes, I have some thoughts on it. I saw a mod that does phase submarines a long time ago and it looks pretty cool. The issue is, I'm not a fan of phase ships and didn't play around with them much. It is kinda hard for me to balance them so I'm quite hesitant about the idea.

I notice most phase ships phase and start dancing around, especially the smaller ones. 

Submarines don't exactly dance, but they can submerge/emerge to dodge things coming their way.   To stay with the Musashi style, I could imagine them acting more like the Ziggurat in how they use their phase

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Arghy

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Re: [0.95.1a] Musashi Manufactorum Ship and Weapon Packs 1.2.5
« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2022, 08:34:19 PM »

Guys, after I nerfed the ship, they are damaged more often and with high CR deployment cost, they just ruined my campaign. I've adjusted the deployment cost a bit so they're not as lethal as before.
Yeah i've been doing some REDACTED clearing and the losses are pretty nuts haha, on one hand it's great because it shows that there was an imbalance before but they could use some tweaking towards the other side. They're still capable and the losses are a little above my vanilla run so almost there! How much did you tweak the numbers?
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PuffyJelly

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Re: [0.95.1a] Musashi Manufactorum Ship and Weapon Packs 1.2.5
« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2022, 08:53:55 PM »

Guys, after I nerfed the ship, they are damaged more often and with high CR deployment cost, they just ruined my campaign. I've adjusted the deployment cost a bit so they're not as lethal as before.
Yeah i've been doing some REDACTED clearing and the losses are pretty nuts haha, on one hand it's great because it shows that there was an imbalance before but they could use some tweaking towards the other side. They're still capable and the losses are a little above my vanilla run so almost there! How much did you tweak the numbers?

So I reduced around 10% to almost all parameters so I do the same to the deployment cost. Now the ship is so good with a destroyer and up with the special ammo feeder but they're quite underpowered when comes to swarm. They still boast substantial PD mounts combined with the range advantage, though. Just that they can't face tank fighters with just their armor anymore.
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grinningsphinx

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Re: [0.95.1a] Musashi Manufactorum Ship and Weapon Packs 1.2.5
« Reply #103 on: January 21, 2022, 10:18:54 PM »

Im gonna keep the mod and the ships the way they are for...Removing the targeting core would suddenly turn them into just-another-ship that id never bother with. The Musashi BP isnt all that common to begin with either lol. I play with a lot of faction and hullmod mods and the intention to balance against Vanilla is kinda misguided considering no one i know just runs one mod in a vacuum. Were all playing faction mods to increase variety and everyone knows that some factions are stronger then others on a per ship basis. Nex already does a decent job keeping things in balance with the vanilla factions(for the most part). By the time you can build a whole fleet and the weapons, youve kinda already won unless youre going for the super high end bounties or take on fortress Remnant systems.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 10:21:28 PM by grinningsphinx »
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PuffyJelly

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Re: [0.95.1a] Musashi Manufactorum Ship and Weapon Packs 1.2.5
« Reply #104 on: January 21, 2022, 11:02:37 PM »

Im gonna keep the mod and the ships the way they are for...Removing the targeting core would suddenly turn them into just-another-ship that id never bother with. The Musashi BP isnt all that common to begin with either lol. I play with a lot of faction and hullmod mods and the intention to balance against Vanilla is kinda misguided considering no one i know just runs one mod in a vacuum. Were all playing faction mods to increase variety and everyone knows that some factions are stronger then others on a per ship basis. Nex already does a decent job keeping things in balance with the vanilla factions(for the most part). By the time you can build a whole fleet and the weapons, youve kinda already won unless youre going for the super high end bounties or take on fortress Remnant systems.

Hey Grinningsphinx, do you mean that, at the current state after the nerf, the ship is underpowered? I'm not at the end game yet and using a lot of mods also. It is quite hard to balance but I test each ship with ships from various mods and I think they're still doing fine after the update. The only struggle I have is with carriers, lol. Maybe I will increase the PD range bonus from the targeting core.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 11:30:03 PM by PuffyJelly »
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