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Author Topic: Quick question about the Gryphon and missile skills  (Read 2081 times)

TotenKopf

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Quick question about the Gryphon and missile skills
« on: May 12, 2021, 10:03:04 AM »

Are missile specialization and expanded missile rack ammo increases additive or multiplicative? I'm assuming they're additive but I'm not at the computer to test.

For the Gryphon specifically, how judicious is the AI in using auto forge? Depending on the answer to the question above, having six to eight times the stock number of missiles would seem to be sufficient even for protracted engagements.

Add in the eccm package and I could understand this ship having a strong cult following. If only I weren't at work...
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AcaMetis

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Re: Quick question about the Gryphon and missile skills
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2021, 10:16:02 AM »

Quote
Are missile specialization and expanded missile rack ammo increases additive or multiplicative? I'm assuming they're additive but I'm not at the computer to test.
Bonuses are additive, penalties are multiplicative, IIRC. In the case of the skill it's definitely additive - an officer with Missile Spec (+100%) on a ship with EMR (+100%) will have 15 missiles available for a missile that normally comes with 5.

Quote
For the Gryphon specifically, how judicious is the AI in using auto forge? Depending on the answer to the question above, having six to eight times the stock number of missiles would seem to be sufficient even for protracted engagements.
Not at all, I've heard, but the combination of MS and EMR should give a Gryphon plenty of missiles to hold it's own even in extended engagements. There's a reason it has a cult following.
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Thaago

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Re: Quick question about the Gryphon and missile skills
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2021, 11:59:17 AM »

Yup, I can confirm all that. Gryphon as pure HE support with an officer, so all Harpoons in the smalls and mediums, carries up to 198 Harpoons depending on exactly when it pulls the trigger on its reload, plus a large missile of choice on top (I was using Hurricane, but I've been considering trying again with a Squall (!) which would be weird, but it has triple ammo + a reload now...). With all the Harpoons in 1 linked group and the large making for only 2 missile groups the AI seems to handle it ok (more missile groups is really iffy, the AI tends to "hover" its control on a group if it is "considering" firing and that blocks other groups from firing).

Its very specialized and really needs other ships around to do the 'gruntwork' of trading shots and raising shield flux, but its a darn good finisher. I like to set them to escort heavy cruisers or capitals with a steady officer - they stay protected because they are behind/beside a cap, but are close enough to launch many volleys of missiles. And it has vulcans so does shoot down pesky missiles and fighters decently.
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TotenKopf

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Re: Quick question about the Gryphon and missile skills
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2021, 01:12:32 PM »

Thanks for all the info. Sounds like you could really over saturate an enemy ship's PD if you paired it with a carrier. Can't wait to fire that sucker up!

Also, the tips about AI weapon groups is interesting. I always turn off all autofire on AI ships and ungroup as much as possible as I assumed they had perfect control and didn't use weapon groups per se. I've dialed back my own autofire as I've gotten more proficient at weapon switching for flux management.

I never know what missiles to take. Are harpoons the suggested support missile? I was thinking some sabot and a torpedo or two, but those are better suited for strike craft I suppose?
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Thaago

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Re: Quick question about the Gryphon and missile skills
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2021, 01:38:49 PM »

You're very welcome!

Harpoons are my go to medium range "finisher" missile because it can safely fly over allies and deals good damage to armor and hull. They can travel a good distance and are very fast with the ECCM hullmod. They rely on other weapons to get the enemy ship in a good position to get killed, but then they do the killing.

Atropos are shorter range but better tracking harpoons, basically. A bit better per shot damage, a bit worse total damage per OP spent.

Sabots are very powerful anti-shield missiles, great for giving finisher's the opportunity to get the kill. They are a bit shorter range than Harpoons, so while they fly over allies in theory, a launching ship usually needs to be on the frontlines for them to work. They make for decent "panic" missiles because they will spike up the enemy's flux and make them back off.

Reaper torpedos offer tons of damage and are either very cheap (for the smalls) or have lots of ammo (for the mediums) compared to harpoons, but they don't fly over allies and are somewhat slow: frontline ships only and not effective vs very nimble (frigate) targets, but they can kill enemy big ships extremely quickly.

Hammers are like reapers but moderately faster, have much less damage per shot, and moderately less damage per OP. Sometimes it can be nice to have more smaller torpedoes instead of a single big one, but I usually prefer Reapers. Dual Hammers are not bad substitutes if reapers are unavailable and you want torpedoes though.

As some example builds: for my frontline Enforcers with officers and mid range guns, I have 2 sabots and 2 reapers. The sabots are in their own group and in linked firemode (so a single "mouse click" from either the AI or the player fires both), and the reapers are also in their own group and linked. They do waste more shots by having them linked because of overkill, but they get a lot more overloads and kills which I consider worth it. For my non-officered Enforcers with long range guns I go 4 harpoons.

For the AI using weapon groups: They handle them the same way a player would! The AI will turn groups' sutofire on and off depending on flux, and use one group as a "manual" fire (that single manual selected group is the only logic for testing firing vs enemy defenses, IIRC). They handle the auto fire settings themselves in battle, so that tick box does nothing for the AI. The 'linked' vs 'alternating' however does cause changes, especially for missiles, because in linked mode all the missiles in the group will fire at once. You can also do some nasty tricks like putting missiles in the same group as guns and linking them, so that whatever target makes the guns fire also makes the missiles fire...
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Kanil

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Re: Quick question about the Gryphon and missile skills
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2021, 05:15:53 PM »

You can also do some nasty tricks like putting missiles in the same group as guns and linking them, so that whatever target makes the guns fire also makes the missiles fire...

That sounds pretty helpful. The AI conserving it's missiles can be quite annoying when your ship is basically setup to just spam missiles constantly. I'll have to try linking them with a tac laser or something some day.
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DuckFlux

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Re: Quick question about the Gryphon and missile skills
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2021, 02:04:18 PM »

I can confirm that the AI Gryphons will use the missile autoforge.

I transferred command to one near the end of a long battle and it's autoforge charges were at zero.

In another game I ordered a cripple Gryphon to retreat near the end of another battle, and when retreating past an enemy while having a comfortable amount of flux reserves for shielding, it used the auto forge which almost maxed out its flux. I thought I'd lose the silly thing, but I guess it was reloading to get some sabot's, as they popped the encroaching enemy. 1000 IQ AI plays.
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