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Author Topic: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots  (Read 4639 times)

Sutopia

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Re: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2021, 10:22:33 AM »

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But seriously, who doesn’t upgrade megaport? There is 0 downside as of current implementation and everyone would upgrade it without second thought. There gotta be a competing option and I think this is a perfect opportunity to address it.
Does there really need to be a downside? You spend money to upgrade something, the thing is upgraded. Colonies are enough of a puzzle as is with all of the new items and restrictions, IMO.

What puzzle are we talking about? The current colony system is shallow IMHO. It’s not even about downside from my proposal, just an opportunity cost.
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AcaMetis

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Re: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2021, 10:32:51 AM »

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What puzzle are we talking about? The current colony system is shallow IMHO. It’s not even about downside from my proposal, just an opportunity cost.
The colony item requirements? Like you need a planet with no atmosphere to make use of the fuel production item (can never recall how to spell it off-hand...), nanoforges need low hazard planets because of heavy industry's upkeep but can't go on habitable planets, the refinery item take no atmosphere as well, you need a gas giant for the volatiles dynamo thing, soil nanites can't go on a planet with rare ore or volatiles, etc. It's even more of a puzzle if you want to avoid pather cells, since you can't have two items on the same planet or an item on the same planet as mining and refining.

As for opportunity cost, I don't really feel like spaceports (megaports, really) need it. It's purpose is to boost accessibility, it boost accessibility. Not everything needs questions and consideration, there's enough of that with colonies as is.
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SirHartley

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Re: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2021, 10:34:39 AM »

I think OP exaggerates how good commerce is. At 50% increase in income, as the second money making industry, it's probably only half as a good as a different money maker.
it's +150%, not +50.

Split it into two industries or remove it if it is so strong. Making a single industry require multiple industry slots adds a pointless UI element to every other industry and opens the door to stupid things like 3-slot industries.
IndEvo already has it implemented - I don't think anyone halfway sensible would do 3-slot industries.
I don't quite get the UI element requirement issue:
Spoiler
[close]

Splitting it into two sounds kind of annoying, since it already is the industry with the lowest amount of engagement - and what would happen to the open market it adds?
I could see a weaker version that needs one slot (for something like total 50%-75% increase), with the more powerful one being added via upgrade, taking a second slot.

Regarding overcomplication - colonies are currently rather shallow. The items having specific requirements was a very welcome change into a direction I was hoping for.
Asking the player to use their brain to make a choice is not too much to ask.
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AcaMetis

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Re: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2021, 10:39:57 AM »

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it's +150%, not +50.
It's +50% base. The item adds +50% (and +4 pather cell interest), an Alpha Core adds +25% (and a pather cell/AI inspection if you didn't have either already), and a SP improvement adds +25% (and doubles the cost of the next SP improvement on that colony). There's no way that a casual player can boost every commerce they have that much before they stopped caring about money a long time ago, especially if the game is not generous with the commerce item drops. Getting a bunch from the historian would cost dozens of SP.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 10:42:02 AM by AcaMetis »
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Megas

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Re: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2021, 10:42:46 AM »

Commerce being very good to nearly must-have is enough of a penalty, especially with -3 stability.  Military Base being required for every planet (at least in games where player cannot colonize all planets in one system) is bad enough.  I want to have or need some variety in my colonies to meet demands.

Dealmaker Holosuite may be good, but if I am avoiding Pather cells, I would only use it if I have no other item needs (like nanoforge), since most items add +4 to Pather interest (and it takes +7 to spawn a cell).  Two planets will be dedicated to heavy industry and fuel production, no dealmaker on those worlds.  Of course, that assumes dealmaker can be found.  In my game, I found other items instead, and I would need to grind the historian to conjure up those dealmakers.

Commerce's income boosting is most useful after player nukes the core worlds and kill all income from exports.  At that point, other industries is for self-sufficiency reasons (i.e., meet demands).

Commerce? Always best second choice? ...What are you putting as your first?

Because for me, the first choice is heavy industry, and the second choice is refining; that typically gives more profit than commerce would because heavy industry really isn't a profit-generator, and more importantly, it makes my heavy industry immune to trade disruptions. Commerce comes third at best - and generally by that point I'm no longer struggling to keep the colony supported and don't particularly care to add another -3 stability on top of free port. (Now, once the colony hits max size and I can turn freeport and hazard pay off... well, that's also frequently the point where I'm suddenly making enough credits that I don't even care about commerce.)

Now, for a one-off "I'm building mining on this gas giant" sort of colony, yeah, commerce comes second. But that's because there simply isn't anything else that's really worth building there, not because commerce is overpowered.
For me, Commerce is usually my fourth industry.  First industry varies by planet, but usually one among Farming, Mining, or Heavy Industry, depending on planet.  Second industry is usually Military Base.  Third industry is another commodity producer.  (Occasionally, second and third choices are reversed.)  Fourth is Commerce.

Oh, as for Heavy Industry and Refinery, I would only do that if I do not have Mining on it.  Heavy Industry with forge is +4 interest, and Refinery alone is +2, for +6.  If I add Mining, that is another +1 for +7 total and hello Pather cells!
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 10:45:55 AM by Megas »
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Sutopia

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Re: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2021, 10:45:27 AM »

Commerce (new): +25% income, -2 stability, requires an industry slot

Underworld heritage:
+50% income, -2 stability(doubled penalty if megaport present)
Requires an industry slot
Requires commerce
Adds black market to player colony
Adds planet condition “organized crime” that cannot be removed
Organized crime: -2 stability, +2 harvested organ
SP upgrade and alpha core effect: +1 stability
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 10:48:13 AM by Sutopia »
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AcaMetis

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Re: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2021, 10:54:02 AM »

Commerce (new): +25% income, -2 stability, requires an industry slot

Underworld heritage:
+50% income, -2 stability(doubled if megaport present)
Requires an industry slot
Requires commerce
Adds black market to player colony
Adds planet condition “organized crime” that cannot be removed
Organized crime: -2 stability, +2 harvested organ
SP upgrade and alpha core effect: +1 stability
So...two industry slots and -11 stability (without Free Port you don't get money from "smuggled" exports, per the freeport button's tooltip, so underworld heritage working without it makes little to no sense) for +75% income, a black market and +2 organs?

I don't think there's any situation where building that is a sensible decision. In terms of profits you'd be better off with a Waystation's +10% accessibility.
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KDR_11k

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Re: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2021, 10:59:45 AM »

You need to get one of the upgrade items for that math to hold, if you don't get that lucky roll you can at most get +100% and that's if you have an alpha core at that point. My second industry rarely goes up late enough for me to have alpha cores already. Plus getting all the defenses takes a LOT of money at which point we don't really need to worry too much about the money balancing.
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SCC

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Re: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2021, 11:06:04 AM »

- and what would happen to the open market it adds?
Why is commerce required for open market, anyway? Can't all colonies, or all colonies of size 5 or bigger, simply have it?

Thaago

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Re: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2021, 11:06:57 AM »

For thinking about total profit gained: it doesn't just multiply the money gained by other industries, it also multiplies the base income from population that every colony has. I don't have number off the top of my head, but that is a significant amount.

As it stands, Commerce is a great moneymaking industry without any items or cores, and skyrockets to truly ludicrous levels with them: on a colony with 2 industries + population income, a fully boosted commerce is the equivalent of roughly 4 more industries, maybe more depending on pop income numbers. Its a little much!

Otoh, I don't think it would take a major tweak to reign it in. Change the AI core and story point bonuses to something other than money and its down to 100% with an item and a stability penalty, which is more in line.
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Sutopia

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Re: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2021, 11:07:24 AM »

Commerce (new): +25% income, -2 stability, requires an industry slot

Underworld heritage:
+50% income, -2 stability(doubled if megaport present)
Requires an industry slot
Requires commerce
Adds black market to player colony
Adds planet condition “organized crime” that cannot be removed
Organized crime: -2 stability, +2 harvested organ
SP upgrade and alpha core effect: +1 stability
So...two industry slots and -11 stability (without Free Port you don't get money from "smuggled" exports, per the freeport button's tooltip, so underworld heritage working without it makes little to no sense) for +75% income, a black market and +2 organs?

I don't think there's any situation where building that is a sensible decision. In terms of profits you'd be better off with a Waystation's +10% accessibility.
It makes me happy to be able to meet internal organ demand without AI usage. It was also a condition that existed prior to introducing colony system which makes it easy to mod or add back to the base game.

I’m not following your math though.
-2(commerce)
-2(underworld)
-2(crime)
-2(underworld with megaport)
That sums up to -8. Comparing to current implementation it’s additional-5 with additional 25% income if you decide to become crime lord; or +1 stability but -25% income.

As you suggested without commerce colony is “fine”. I think this is a calculated risk that can provide some little more depth in colony system.

Or do you prefer the building secretly increase luddic path activity (x2 base, x3 with mega)? I’d love to see the spices they can bring.
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Helldiver

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Re: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2021, 11:14:52 AM »

Don't know how I feel about the 2 industry slots solution but current Commerce with the new domain item is absolutely broken. The stability penalty is nothing even combined with the free port penalty. I was wondering why I was making so much monthly money in my playthrough compared to before and found out that just one mining colony (with SP upgrade but no domain item on mining) with Commerce (with no SP upgrade but domain item installed) was making more money than everything else I had combined at all times (not tied to a commodity situation in the sector).

As for opportunity cost, I don't really feel like spaceports (megaports, really) need it. It's purpose is to boost accessibility, it boost accessibility. Not everything needs questions and consideration, there's enough of that with colonies as is.

The opportunity cost of Megaports should be some kind of upkeep. Right now you just upgrade to Megaports everywhere by default (even if base accessibility is high, it counters reductions from other sources) because there's no reason not to. It's like if every tiny country on Earth had airports the size of LAX.
There's hardly any thinking or choice required with colonies as they currently are in vanilla, even with the limitations on some domain items. You follow the same cookie cutter flowchart in your head and then it's infinite free money that fluctuates some based on wether you have the items yet or not. Even when money sinks will be added later, the way the money is generated is not interesting and too ez.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 11:17:21 AM by Helldiver »
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Megas

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Re: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2021, 11:21:37 AM »

For thinking about total profit gained: it doesn't just multiply the money gained by other industries, it also multiplies the base income from population that every colony has. I don't have number off the top of my head, but that is a significant amount.
I remember seeing 40,000 base, either for size 5 or 6 (do not remember which size).

If Commerce needs a different improvement bonus, make it more stability.  Honestly, I like Commerce being all about money and have it boost more income ever since we lost more income from 6+ stability.

As for organs, it would be nice if there was another item for Pop&Inf aside from alpha core that can boost production of organs.  Maybe let Biofactory Embryo be installed in Pop&Inf to produce more drugs and organs.
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Megas

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Re: Make Commerce take two Industry Slots
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2021, 11:27:58 AM »

If I had to pick a nerf for Commerce, it would be remove Dealmaker from the game.  That way, player can improve income without items that attract the zombie terrorists.  Also, I can use items that really matter like more nanoforges and synchrotrons (because demands for military base cannot be met without use of items).
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