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Author Topic: Buff Impact Mitigation  (Read 1666 times)

SCC

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Buff Impact Mitigation
« on: May 12, 2021, 08:11:55 AM »

  • Change "+50 armour for armour damage calculation" to "double residual armour" and make it a normal effect, not elite.
  • Buff damage taken to armour modifier from -25% to -33%.
  • Move the -50% weapon and engine effect from base to elite part of the skill, or make a new effect for the elite.

Wyvern

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Re: Buff Impact Mitigation
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2021, 08:15:05 AM »

Why?
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Megas

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Re: Buff Impact Mitigation
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2021, 08:43:08 AM »

Too much protection in the base skill means too many ships resist kinetic because of NPC officer spam.

I would not mind the Elite getting more armor.  +50 seems like a pittance for the story point cost.

I do not want double weapon/engine moved to elite.  That will destroy the point of getting it as it is over Ranged Specialization if I do not want to burn story points on Elite effects (because I may want to respec often).
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Sutopia

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Re: Buff Impact Mitigation
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2021, 09:27:41 AM »

Residual armor buff should be in damage control if at all.

However I do think 50 armor for damage calculation seems very janky.
That’s an arbitrary value came out of nowhere.
I would however think it’s proper to remove minimum damage % to armor so high armor can actually be very powerful against low dph weapons.

Edit: the minimum damage % should also raise  (15% -> 20%) to make the skill useful.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 09:37:13 AM by Sutopia »
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Amoebka

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Re: Buff Impact Mitigation
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2021, 09:31:07 AM »

I feel like the skill is finally in a good place after being broken for a long time. 50 residual armor might not seem like much, but it actually is when you crunch the numbers. 150 was beyond crazy.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Buff Impact Mitigation
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2021, 09:32:17 AM »

50 more residual armor is ok as a value, really.

I've recently fabricated a rather fuctional XIV Onslaught with 2500+ armor and that  Horseshoe shaped abomination "only" manages to get around 125 resudial armor (before the added 50), meaning that just one skill made elite gives a ship more than a third the residual armor of a fully armored up XIV Onslaught. It's quite nutty if you think about it!

No, I think the better approach to Armor tanking builds being..well...subpar to basically anything else in the game is directly linked to three things:
1) The current Residual Armor value is at 5%. Having it slightly buffed could improve things on ships that can't feasibly reach ridicolous values (2000+ plus armor) of that caliber, if ever so slightly.
2)Damage on hull can only be reduced to 15% the original value (I think? I need to read how armor and damage reduction works again...) Meaning even the strongest residual armor will still take damage no matter what, even Vulcans will still do at least 1 damage to an onslaught with 175 residual armor. I wonder how buffing residual armor to reducing damage by up to 90% and also making it possible for weapons to deal 0 damage could work...
3) There now are more skills buffing damage than there are ones reducing it. A frigade with Wolfpack Tactics, Target Analysys, Energy Weapon Mastery and using any energy weapon type deals nearly 100% extra damage to capital sized enemies. I would really like the introduction of Officer skills/Commander skills/Hullmods actually doing the opposite and reducing damage taken more the smaller the enemy ship dealing said damage is. Just throwing it out there.

And, and, I personally don't even know how certain new mechanics work right now. You can currently get a 100% CR ship to have -35% hull and Armor damage taken with Officer skills. How does that even enter the equations above?

« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 09:41:26 AM by Arcagnello »
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TaLaR

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Re: Buff Impact Mitigation
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2021, 09:34:08 AM »

As it is, Impact Mitigation fails to compete vs Ranged Spec, unless you only plan to ever pilot ships that have too short range to get any benefit from Ranged Spec.

But super tanky *everything* as we had with old IM is somewhat annoying too.
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Thaago

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Re: Buff Impact Mitigation
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2021, 10:33:02 AM »

TLDR; the skill is a bit better than damage control as it currently stands because it has comparable hull savings but also armor savings. It is better against smaller incoming shots and significantly worse vs large incoming shots for stopping hull damage.

I do think the skill is weaker than it was, but I also think its still a pretty impactful skill. Since the change I have still used low tech ships effectively to beat endgame threats and in many ways its easier because said threats aren't immune to kinetic damage anymore. If the skill needs a buff (and I think sure it could use a small one, why not) I've suggested in the past adding back the old minimum damage reduction of 10% from 15%, making armor tanks less susceptible to minimum damage from small sources



As for is it worth taking elite:+50 armor reduces mid caliber incoming damage to hull by an amount comparable to damage control, with a % comparative reduction equal to: 50/(d+r+50) where d is incoming shot size for purpose of armor reduction and r is residual armor (5% base armor). d is effected by the -25% armor damage if I recall correctly.

Some numbers: vs a 100 penetration, 75 after skill shot:
250 armor -> 36.4% relative reduction in hull damage of taking elite over not elite
500 armor -> 33.33%
1000 armor -> 28.6%
2000 armor -> 22.2%

vs a 200 penetration, 150 after skill shot:
250 armor -> 23.5% relative reduction in hull damage of taking elite over not elite
500 armor -> 22.2%
1000 armor -> 20%
2000 armor -> 16.67%


It is still one of my "go to" elite skills. Its not a game changing effect like elite phase mastery, but it is better than many elite skills.



Changing +50 to "double normal" is an interesting change because its a further nerf for high tech ships relying on the skill to tank kinetics, but a decent buff for capital ships (and dominators). The relative % damage reduction caused by this reduces to an even simpler formula: r/(d+2r)

Same numbers as above:
250 armor -> 12.5% reduction to hull damage from pulse laser (75 penetration) elite compared to not elite
500 armor -> 20%
1000 armor -> 28.6% (same)
2000 armor -> 36.4%

vs a 200 penetration, 150 after skill shot:
250 armor -> 7.14% relative reduction in damage of elite compared to not elite
500 armor -> 12.5%
1000 armor -> 20%
2000 armor -> 28.6%

So the proposed change would really eliminate the value of the elite skill for high tech ships: on the other hand, low tech armor tanks would love it.



The total damage reduction to hull given by impact mitigation (with elite) simplifies to a slightly more complicated formula: (.25r + 50)/(.75d + r + 50)

Numbers vs 100 shot size:
250 armor -> 38.6% reduction in hull damage of the elite skill vs no skill
500 armor -> 37.5%
1000 armor -> 35.7%
2000 armor -> 33.3%

vs 200 shot size:
250 armor -> 25%
500 armor -> 25%
1000 armor -> 25%
2000 armor -> 25%

Well isn't that neat, its a constant! And equal to the Damage Control numbers! Cooooool.

vs 500 shot size (heavy rounds now)
250 armor -> 12.1%
500 armor -> 12.5%
1000 armor -> 13.2%
2000 armor -> 14.3%

There we go: heavy shots start to get through Impact Mitigation.



So, in comparison to Damage Control, just the hull damage mitigation portion of Impact Mitigation is superior for shot size below 200, and inferior for shot size above 200. It gives -50% damage taken to weapons and engines instead of +50% faster repairs: better for small amounts of incoming damage/emp, worse for overwhelming amounts where the weapon is going down no matter what.

So to me it seems like Impact Mitigation is roughly equivalent to Damage Control, just better against medium ordinance and worse vs heavy, without taking into account the skill actually protecting armor as well as just hull. So its a moderately superior skill as it stands to damage control.

Or take both and stack that hull damage mitigation and weapon uptime modifiers to quite high levels.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 11:50:31 AM by Thaago »
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SCC

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Re: Buff Impact Mitigation
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2021, 10:59:27 AM »

...I did not know Impact Mitigation decreases damage to hull by 25%, too.

Thaago

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Re: Buff Impact Mitigation
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2021, 11:07:51 AM »

Its really hidden in the armor mechanics! It was only after several years of the old skill that the community realized it was having such an Impact, as it were.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Buff Impact Mitigation
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2021, 11:20:45 AM »

Ludd praises your cold hard math Thaago!

Taking both Impact Mitigation and Damage Control is indeed the way on bigger low tech vehicles, even a XIV legion gets to 2100 without even using Armored Weapon mounts afterall.

That's 105 Residual Armor already, Elite Impact mitigation buffs it to 155 and you can even have -35% Hull and Armor Damage taken thanks to both Impact Mitigation (-25%) and 100% Combat Readiness (-10%).

That said, you can still easily, almost fully have allmost all these buffs negated by the enemy (especially if you're on a capital ship) and being fired upon by either energy weapons up close with Energy Weapon mastery or from quite far away using Ranged Spec with any damage type from energy/ballistic mounts.

The main problem is not that Armor does not work, but that its buffs have been almost endirely dwarfed by damage increases thru skills.

...I did not know Impact Mitigation decreases damage to hull by 25%, too.

There's also another skill that (I'm 90% sure) also reduces armor damage taken by 25%. Don't remember if it's either non-elite Impact Mitigation or Damage Control


« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 11:22:40 AM by Arcagnello »
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AcaMetis

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Re: Buff Impact Mitigation
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2021, 11:39:13 AM »

Quote
There's also another skill that (I'm 90% sure) also reduces armor damage taken by 25%. Don't remember if it's either non-elite Impact Mitigation or Damage Control
Impact Mitigation is -25% armor damage, Damage Control is -25% hull damage taken.

EDIT: Neither is an Elite effect, for the record.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Buff Impact Mitigation
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2021, 12:03:48 PM »

Quote
There's also another skill that (I'm 90% sure) also reduces armor damage taken by 25%. Don't remember if it's either non-elite Impact Mitigation or Damage Control
Impact Mitigation is -25% armor damage, Damage Control is -25% hull damage taken.

EDIT: Neither is an Elite effect, for the record.

Ah, there we go. Thanks Acamentis! So in order to get -35% Armor Damage and -35% Hull damage you need

1) Crew Training for +15% CR
2) Reliability Engineering for another +15% CR
3) Impact Mitigation for -25% Armor Damage
4)Damage Control for -25% hull damage

With all this listed and finally accurate, does this (actually great) damage reduction apply before or after going through Armor or residual armor?
Having the incoming damage reduced by 35% before damage reductions due to armor take place would be amazing.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 12:07:54 PM by Arcagnello »
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Thaago

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Re: Buff Impact Mitigation
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2021, 12:19:37 PM »

I know the -25% armor damage from the skill applies to "damage for purpose of armor reduction" and I suspect the -10% from CR does as well, but I do not have hard data to support that, and I also don't know in what manner they would stack. As reductions, would they be multiplicative for a total of 32.5% reduction? I would think so, but would want to do actual tests to be sure.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Buff Impact Mitigation
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2021, 12:23:38 PM »

I know the -25% armor damage from the skill applies to "damage for purpose of armor reduction" and I suspect the -10% from CR does as well, but I do not have hard data to support that, and I also don't know in what manner they would stack. As reductions, would they be multiplicative for a total of 32.5% reduction? I would think so, but would want to do actual tests to be sure.

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« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 12:32:20 PM by Arcagnello »
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