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[SirHartley]

I've been engaging with colonies in 0.95 for a bit now, and colonies are in a really good place balance wise, provided the player does not build commerce. While the new items generally equalize the playing field when it comes to economic power (read: Income), commerce is a single, very obvious outlier. I have not seen many screenshots of colonies without it, and it's not because of the open market feature.

Multiplying income by +50%, another +50% from the item, +25% from an alpha core and +25% from each improvement is brutal and causes the building to actively diminish choice, rather than add to the option pool.

It is always, without fail, the most optimal choice for the second colony slot. Anyone building something else only does so because they haven't given it any thought or, like me, actively avoid optimization. Sadly, if given the option, players will optimize the fun out of the game, and commerce enables this to a very high degree.

It needs a nerf. The stability reduction is not enough of a drawback - it's easily rectified (the mandatory defences, patrol HQ and Star Fortress, give you 8 stab with commerce, without any other upgrades).

I had the exact same problem with the Privateer Base, which was just too powerful to be "optional", and became "must-have". Spent a good while trying to figure that one out, and finally settled on the two colony slots solution.

Making it take two colony slots would make the industry only effective on planets with good conditions, or high base income, and also prohibit building it until 2 slots open up, which is a very high initial investment and an interesting, deliberate choice that has to be taken by the player.

Honestly, in my personal opinion, it'd need the 2-slot requirement and a reduction in base effectiveness to 25%, 25% for the item, 25% for the alpha core, and 10% per SP, to be in line with the other industries.

[Sutopia]

Or just remove SP improvement from colony system comp and double any AI related penalty.
Commerce is perfectly balanced if not using any of the above.

[SirHartley]

Hard disagree on that, 125% income Mult is still way too much to be balanced out by any esoteric penalty.
The SP upgrade is in line with the other buildings, why would commerce be the only one without it?

[Sutopia]

Hard disagree on that, 125% income Mult is still way too much to be balanced out by any esoteric penalty.
The SP upgrade is in line with the other buildings, why would commerce be the only one without it?

I didn’t explain myself well enough . I mean remove SP improvement from colony system completely so you don’t get free stability to support the commerce.

[SirHartley]

I can get it up to 8 stability without any SP improvements, and without building anything I wouldn't build anyways, why would removing them help in any way?
I only need 5 for full income.

[Sutopia]

I can get it up to 8 stability without any SP improvements, why would removing them help in any way?
I only need 5 for full income.

Free port and pirate activities. Maybe Ludd need some buff as well.
It’s overall colony system being too easy to sustain.

[AcaMetis]

If commerce became the only (vanilla) industry that costs two industry slots than it'd just become an outliner of a different sort. Quite frankly I can't justify it being an industry as is - it's supposed to be "regulations, grants and infrastructure to encourage thriving independent trade", is a quarter of my planet dedicated to market stalls if I build it or what? It's silly that commerce takes up the same amount of infrastructure space as spaceship producing industry.

Beyond that I don't see why commerce even needs to be nerfed that badly. The main point of colonies, if not producing your own ships, is generating income. Nerfing that income too much would end up making colonies useless, and unless you're building a giant AI-run empire (at which point "balance" doesn't really matter much anyway) the question of more income (commerce) or more shipbuilding capacity (heavy industry) is a valid one.

[Wyvern]

Commerce? Always best second choice? ...What are you putting as your first?

Because for me, the first choice is heavy industry, and the second choice is refining; that typically gives more profit than commerce would because heavy industry really isn't a profit-generator, and more importantly, it makes my heavy industry immune to trade disruptions. Commerce comes third at best - and generally by that point I'm no longer struggling to keep the colony supported and don't particularly care to add another -3 stability on top of free port. (Now, once the colony hits max size and I can turn freeport and hazard pay off... well, that's also frequently the point where I'm suddenly making enough credits that I don't even care about commerce.)

Now, for a one-off "I'm building mining on this gas giant" sort of colony, yeah, commerce comes second. But that's because there simply isn't anything else that's really worth building there, not because commerce is overpowered.

[SCC]

Making it take two colony slots would make the industry only effective on planets with good conditions, or high base income, and also prohibit building it until 2 slots open up, which is a very high initial investment and an interesting, deliberate choice that has to be taken by the player.

I don't think it would be as good of a choice as you make it out to be (I see two - do I put a military base on this colony and thus can't use commerce, or do I not put the base there and go with commerce instead), but it would still be better than what we currently have.

I wouldn't say that colonies without commerce or AI cores are that good, but I think a decent upgrade would be giving some core worlds some other colony items than nanoforges and synchrotrons, so that you could raid for them.

If commerce became the only (vanilla) industry that costs two industry slots than it'd just become an outliner of a different sort. Quite frankly I can't justify it being an industry as is - it's supposed to be "regulations, grants and infrastructure to encourage thriving independent trade", is a quarter of my planet dedicated to market stalls if I build it or what? It's silly that commerce takes up the same amount of infrastructure space as spaceship producing industry.

It doesn't matter what is it dressed up, the income multiplier certainly is industry worthy.

[Sutopia]

If commerce became the only (vanilla) industry that costs two industry slots than it'd just become an outliner of a different sort. Quite frankly I can't justify it being an industry as is - it's supposed to be "regulations, grants and infrastructure to encourage thriving independent trade", is a quarter of my planet dedicated to market stalls if I build it or what? It's silly that commerce takes up the same amount of infrastructure space as spaceship producing industry.

Beyond that I don't see why commerce even needs to be nerfed that badly. The main point of colonies, if not producing your own ships, is generating income. Nerfing that income too much would end up making colonies useless, and unless you're building a giant AI-run empire (at which point "balance" doesn't really matter much anyway) the question of more income (commerce) or more shipbuilding capacity (heavy industry) is a valid one.

An alternative would be make it a two-phase structure.

Base structure is the now known as commerce, providing +25% income with -2 stability penalty. (AI usage would still be +25%). This takes one industry slot.

Advanced structure is a completely new structure that takes up another industry slot and is mutually exclusive with megaport. Let’s name it megacorp(not stellaris TM) for now.
Megacorp inherently have the opportunity cost of the accessibility from megaport. It would provide an additional 50% income buff to make it a viable option on a colony that can’t profit from multiple industries. It also comes with an additional-2 stability just because. Using AI core or improvement (despite I don’t like it) only mitigate 1 stability penalty from it.

Let me make a mod doing exactly what I was describing real quick.

[intrinsic_parity]

I think OP exaggerates how good commerce is. At 50% increase in income, as the second money making industry, it's probably only half as a good as a different money maker. As the third, it's approximately the same as having a third industry the makes the average of the other two money makers so not really better but fine to have, it's only when it's the 4th money making industry where it actually outperforms other options. Thing thing is that it's actually pretty hard to have 3-4 money making industries on the same world while using all relevant items, so you end up using it to fill slots that are otherwise hard to fill.

If you spam story points to improve your colonies, they will be OP sure, but that's pretty hard to do with the geometric story point cost scaling. I honestly stop playing long before that would even be a thing. The late game of starsector is not finished, and trying to balance around the current late game is a waste of time.

Edit: I think removing story point upgrades to colonies, or limiting them to one per colony would make sense if one wanted to nerf that aspect of the game.

[AcaMetis]

It doesn't matter what is it dressed up, the income multiplier certainly is industry worthy.

Mechanics are mechanics, but I would nevertheless prefer the fluff to be consistent and sensible. And as is I can't see how the commerce industry is anywhere close to the scale of a heavy industry would be.

Of course all that needs is a different description. Maybe have it mention "local commerce ministry", "dedicated bureaucratic systems (and oversight thereof)" and "sprawling economic districts" instead of "regulations, grants and infrastructure". If it's a big deal industry make it sound like a big deal industry.

An alternative would be make it a two-phase structure.

Base structure is the now known as commerce, providing +25% income with -2 stability penalty. (AI usage would still be +25%). This takes one industry slot.

Advanced structure is a completely new structure that takes up another industry slot and is mutually exclusive with megaport. Let’s name it megacorp(not stellaris TM) for now.
Megacorp inherently have the opportunity cost of the accessibility from megaport. It would provide an additional 50% income buff to make it a viable option on a colony that can’t profit from multiple industries. It also comes with an additional-2 stability just because. Using AI core or improvement (despite I don’t like it) only mitigate 1 stability penalty from it.

Let me make a mod doing exactly what I was describing real quick.

A larger commerce industry that is mutually exclusive with the larger spaceport which, per it's description, sounds like it's necessary to support said larger commerce industry in the first place makes even less sense. Make a Megaport a requirement and have the industry void the accessibility bonus because that part of it has to be dedicated to the larger commerce industry, or something along those lines.

[SafariJohn]

Split it into two industries or remove it if it is so strong. Making a single industry require multiple industry slots adds a pointless UI element to every other industry and opens the door to stupid things like 3-slot industries.

[Sutopia]

It doesn't matter what is it dressed up, the income multiplier certainly is industry worthy.

Mechanics are mechanics, but I would nevertheless prefer the fluff to be consistent and sensible. And as is I can't see how the commerce industry is anywhere close to the scale of a heavy industry would be.

Of course all that needs is a different description. Maybe have it mention "local commerce ministry", "dedicated bureaucratic systems (and oversight thereof)" and "sprawling economic districts" instead of "regulations, grants and infrastructure". If it's a big deal industry make it sound like a big deal industry.

An alternative would be make it a two-phase structure.

Base structure is the now known as commerce, providing +25% income with -2 stability penalty. (AI usage would still be +25%). This takes one industry slot.

Advanced structure is a completely new structure that takes up another industry slot and is mutually exclusive with megaport. Let’s name it megacorp(not stellaris TM) for now.
Megacorp inherently have the opportunity cost of the accessibility from megaport. It would provide an additional 50% income buff to make it a viable option on a colony that can’t profit from multiple industries. It also comes with an additional-2 stability just because. Using AI core or improvement (despite I don’t like it) only mitigate 1 stability penalty from it.

Let me make a mod doing exactly what I was describing real quick.

A larger commerce industry that is mutually exclusive with the larger spaceport which, per it's description, sounds like it's necessary to support said larger commerce industry in the first place makes even less sense. Make a Megaport a requirement and have the industry void the accessibility bonus because that part of it has to be dedicated to the larger commerce industry, or something along those lines.

It’s not from lore perspective but from balance perspective.
The description can be better I have to admit.


But seriously, who doesn’t upgrade megaport? There is 0 downside as of current implementation and everyone would upgrade it without second thought. There gotta be a competing option and I think this is a perfect opportunity to address it.

[AcaMetis]

But seriously, who doesn’t upgrade megaport? There is 0 downside as of current implementation and everyone would upgrade it without second thought. There gotta be a competing option and I think this is a perfect opportunity to address it.

Does there really need to be a downside? You spend money to upgrade something, the thing is upgraded. Colonies are enough of a puzzle as is with all of the new items and restrictions, IMO.