WARNING: very long post!
My motivation for doing this is because I like managing the AI including all its flaws and optimizing builds. I think AI controlled reliable no-loss farm of double 4 star ordos is one of the biggest yet practically useful challenge in the game (no save scum and only iron man). I simply use the tools that vanilla has to offer. I don't care about whether the vanilla ships or weapons are imbalanced etc and don't want to participate in those discussions, I simply use the best tools that are available to me in the current vanilla version to accomplish my goal.
Why double 4* and not single or triple? I don't think triple is possible using AI control simply because lack of PPT... if PPT was not limited, then 4x 4* ordos would be possible too. Double means more exp multiplier for WAY more story points. The spawn rate of ordos is limited too so why not kill 2 at a time for max experience?
I created a fleet that can reliably farm double 4* remnant ordos groups with only AI control (my pilot doesn't enter the battle) and reliably with no losses (very rarely a monitor dies from tachyon radiant repeatedly piercing shields) for IRON MAN farming. 4* is highest spawn in a high danger system after repeated farming, in case people don't know remnant spawns get harder and harder as you kill more and more in the same system. This is at battle size 400 or 300. For 300 just cut the doom and 1 monitor (which actually makes the fight easier).
Strategy and battle plan:
Deployment is 2 paragons, 1 radiant, 1 doom, 4 monitors (219 points). Full beam 4 tachyon paragon, 2 plasma+3 autopulse radiant, max damage mitigation and vent monitors.
I start with 160 DP which is minimum as the AI has overwhelming officer count and I need +60 (20+40) worth of points.
Doom + 3 monitors takes the 2nd closest point, last monitor takes the closest. This is reliable as worst case scenario doom pushes the remnant frigate out of the point if it is contested and monitors follow up to take it if needed (vast majority of the time 2 points can be taken without any contest). One of the points must be +40 to reach 220.
If I don't use doom + a monitor and use another 40 point capital ship, then my DP is 218 points. I put a luddic kite which has SO and add a unstable injector to take the 2nd closest point with 2 monitors. This is also enough to push out the single remnant frigate that occasionally might contest it. The luddic kite is needed to reach the point ASAP since monitors are very slow, and it is a civilian ship so it doesn't contribute to my fleet for the 240 limit for character fleet bonuses. After the luddic kite takes the point, I just retreat it, that is its only purpose.
After the points are taken and my fleet is deployed I don't care about the points anymore if they get capped by enemy.
I line the 3 capitals in middle of the map on the right or left edge in a line close together. Radiant towards the middle since it is most mobile. I then slowly reposition rally points to move forward as the fight goes. Doom on escort of whatever capital is in the front. Monitors manual attack ships in the back line of ordos fleet. If a paragon gets attacked by a frigate at close range without supporting fire, I assign a monitor to attack it and push it away. I will also manually move capitals to try to ensure they are positioned close together in a line the whole fight.
A single paragon reliably kills or pushes away with heavy damage any ships besides enemy radiants. Any 2 cap ships focus fire can kill enemy radiants. My radiant can also solo kill an enemy radiant with some time. I don't avoid any target or kite, I kill or push away the enemy due to heavy damage as they come in.
A reasonable amount of their fleet gets delayed and distracted by the invincible monitors and they also help to avoid my caps from being flanked/surrounded.
The fight can last up to 12 minutes and is a long grinder, not a fight you can just overwhelm the enemy with burst. For about 10 minutes of the fight, there are 240 DP of remnant always on the field due to reinforcements and sometimes 3 radiants. There is A LOT of heavily shielded, mobile, and high damage ships along with a massive amount of fighters/bombers on the field at all times.
Note the fight is easier in the beginning, but becomes at its hardest mid way then gets easier as the AI runs out of ships to field 240 DP. This is because the combat destroyers and cruisers are the first to die and only the radiants and scintillas remain as they reinforce (along with frigates which are numerous and keep coming in as they have low DP). Radiants are hard to kill unless they get targeted down which requires the numbers to be culled first, and scintillas stay in the back launching fighters. This means the fighter/bomber spam is at its greatest in the middle of the fight and most of the radiants are on the field as well. Monitors need to do their best to distract the radiants and primary targets after the destroyers should be the scintillas to remove the fighter spam. Paragon range is essential here to reach the scintillas.
The fight takes a long time as there is A LOT of heavily shielded ships to work through, the doom and monitors usually run out of PPT. The monitors can stay till the end since their CR degrades slower and recovers faster. By the time doom/monitors run out of PPT, the battle has already been decided. But in theory, if PPT wasn't limited, I can take on an unlimited number of ordos fleets. My ships also have the bonus of efficiency upgrade so I can move onto the next fight ASAP.
Some screenshots:
Example battle my forces:
https://i.imgur.com/8LuXBCH.pngExample battle enemy forces (4 radiants):
https://i.imgur.com/1LKXyQp.pngMy character skills:
https://i.imgur.com/htPQTIv.pngMy paragon, there is solar shield on bottom. Must be full beam, no mixing weapon types of different ranges/profiles. If all weapons/beams have same range and profile, AI behavior is more predictable. If I mix weapons, sometimes the AI will stay too far, and only attack a target with beams, or move too close to use all weapons and get too exposed. Need shields to go back up quickly to account for AI inefficiency and maximum survivability. Turret gyros is pretty optional but extra cap is even less needed since this is an endurance fight so vents are the key. Efficiency overhaul so I can take fights back to back faster but also can be dropped:
https://i.imgur.com/3BpM89k.pngMy radiant, 2 plasma+3 autopulse, I would take more plasma but need OP for hull mods:
https://i.imgur.com/oi8ihKX.pngMy monitor. Just maximum damage mitigation and vents:
https://i.imgur.com/R3WSR9a.pngMy doom, nothing special about it.. I need unstable injector and balanced cap/vents so I can reliably reach the 2nd battlefield point ASAP. It likes to repeatedly stop and vent while moving to the point once it reaches 25% flux. Otherwise max survival while it spams mines:
https://i.imgur.com/w1gXI5k.pngMy officers, all ships of same type use officers with same skills, I level officers from level 1 so I can choose all the skills. I have a hard time finding reckless officers so I mentor aggressive ones to make them reckless. 2 paragon, 1 phase ship, 5 monitor officers, + 1 alpha core.
https://i.imgur.com/FoyecjD.pngSome interesting notes and AI observations:
- The AI loves to drop and re-put up shields in the middle of getting attacked even if it has almost no flux and at the worst possible moments. While I can understand why it does this, often it gets exposed to heavy burst damage especially if the shields take long time to go back up. I need durability under the shield to take the burst damage and ways to get the shield back up faster.
As a result, I am forced to put heavy armor, shield conversion - front, accelerated shields, and solar shield on my capital ships (yes even the paragon) just to compensate.
I use heavy armor on paragon instead of reinforced hull because I find that armor plus solar shielding (which reduces damage and increase armor effectiveness) increases survivability MUCH more.
- Radiant has both heavy armor and reinforced hull. Often the radiant will charge due to fearless AI. If it gets overwhelmed, extra flux cap doesn't help since it doesn't withdraw until its flux is near the limit regardless of how much flux capacity it has. So it needs armor/hull strength to reliably survive the retreat.
- Ships have no on-board PD and paragons have converted hanger with xyphos. Paragons have elite energy weapon mastery and no gunnery implants.
Flux management is the absolute key to long term survival. The AI loves wasting flux for no good reason. The -10% flux to energy weapon alone is FAR more valuable than the additional range for the already massive range of a beam paragon.
Xyphos is very good PD as they hover very close or even inside the paragon so they rarely die and provide 360 degree PD. Most importantly, the xyphos dont use up the paragon's flux to fire. I find the combination of xyphos + paragon beams in addition to survivability is sufficient to control all the remnant fighters despite their massive numbers and shields. Doom mines and monitor distraction also help but doom mines aren't absolutely necessary.
Radiant doesn't need PD since its very mobile to run if its overwhelmed and I find the autopulses are decent enough to kill fighters at a reasonable rate when it isn't charging in to kill a ship.
- The paragon AI doesn't finish targets off if another target moves closer, it switches targets even if the almost dead target is still in range. The radiant is willing to chase to finish off though sometimes too recklessly (so it needs more survival).
- The AI loves to spin around unnecessarily. If another target closes in from a different direction, it will disengage current target and take a long time to spin around just to attack the new target. I wish the AI can account for the time it takes to turn and not just the target distance.
If the AI is surrounded, it will literally spin around over and over again and not focus any target at all. Monitors need to engage the surrounding targets to force the frigates and destroyers to back off or change targets. Brilliants/radiants will NOT disengage the current player ship if it is heavily damaged to fight the monitors and they will tunnel it which leads to the death of weaker player ships/capitals. Player radiants can teleport to back off and paragons have fortress shield and both are durable to survive long enough to be relieved.
- The AI loves to fire its beams including tachyon lances into the middle of space without hitting anything. As it turns to hit another target, it sometimes just fires its front tachyon beams even though they hit nothing at all.
- The AI loves to split DPS. Very often I see a paragon literally attack 3+ targets at once with separate beam mounts which is a waste of flux. Ensuring flux usage of the weapons is roughly equal to the recharge rate is essential even if it means dropping weapon slots and using xyphos.
- The AI is inefficient in many ways and this causes the fight to go on much longer than necessary but as long as my ships don't die and still output enough damage, victory is eventually is assured. The AI inefficiencies can be compensated for.
- The flex slot is 42 DP which I use for doom + 1 monitor. I tried with onslaught/conquest instead but I find they die quite a bit. Even with maximum survival onslaught (heavy armor, armored turrets, reinforced hull, impact mitigation, blast doors etc) a sustained charge from a single radiant can kill it and often I can't kill or force retreat the radiant fast enough since the other ships are also busy with their own targets. Conquest fairs even worse and dies even easier, it can't get out of the way since radiant will teleport and kill it.
Other combat ships (auroras, dominators, champions, apogees etc) fare MUCH MUCH worse and can often get overwhelmed by radiants/brilliants or trapped/surrounded easily while not contributing much to the overall fight. I want reliable and no-loss fights, in theory people can use any of those ships and save scum and risk it until they win but it isn't iron man reliable which is my goal.
- Keep in mind, for about 10 minutes of the fight, the enemy has 240 DP of remnant ships on the field plus huge amounts of fighters. The numbers and damage is very high and kiting isn't an option. Maximum sustained durability is a must to ensure reliable no-loss success for iron man.
There are NO OTHER SHIPS I find that can reliably survive such conditions under AI control and with the required PPT besides escort doom, monitor, paragon and radiant.
- For doom, I put NO WEAPONS except salamanders (also doesn't really do anything, just distracts AI) and let the AI spam mines. I find the doom mines + 1 monitor contributes more than any other 42 DP flex while ensuring reliable survivability due to staying far away and with phase. I put doom on escort because without it, the doom sometimes charges in (even with cautious AI) and risks dying. Doom has heavy armor, armored weapon mounts, reinforced hull, and impact mitigation for survival.
- Due to the long nature of the fight, I don't use any fighters (except xyphos on paragon which can reliably survive) or missiles except salamander on doom but the missiles are totally optional.
- I don't use resistant flux conduits because AI doesn't reliably combat vent.
- I use beam paragon because I need the range and reliable accuracy to take down ships. Even with soft flux damage, they can overwhelm all remnant ships besides the radiant which needs focus fire. Non-beam weapon on paragon is not effective enough since range and accuracy is essential for reliable kills. Mixing weapons of different profile (like HVD or plasma) makes no sense as I need all weapons to have consistent accuracy/range so the AI behavior is deterministic. My radiant does only hard flux damage if I need the power to kill enemy radiants but both paragons can also kill a radiant if attacking together.
- I max out the PPT on doom that means phase corps, reliability engineering, hardened subsystems, crew training, and elite systems expertise. I use hardened subsystems, crew training, and reliability engineering on the monitors for PPT. I don't get wolf tactics because I find the +20% fleet wide nav rating is more useful.
- Monitors even with reckless AI love to get trapped into a corner of the map and stay there and also love to get in the way of my ship's line of fire or hide behind my ships. The way around is to manually attack an ordos ship in the backline. Manually telling the monitor to move is insufficient, it must be given an eliminate order.
- Monitors have 20 flux dissipation points, flux distributor, hardened shields, impact mitigation, shield conversion - front, and shield modulation with reckless officer. The officer reliably keeps its shields up 100% and is essentially invincible through the entire fight except for very rare tachyon pierces.
- DO NOT retreat a monitor if its being attacked as the AI likes to drop shields when its about to exit the map even when ordered to retreat while defending itself.
- Every other fight in the game, such as fighting 4 massive invasion fleets simultaneously with nexerelin or tesseracts are a joke compared to double 4 star ordos.
I don't use mod ships because I find they tend to be overpowered compared to vanilla ships (I mean, modders need to give incentive to use them) and prefer vanilla so everyone can replicate the results.
- Star fortress (any tech) + paragons DOESN'T WORK (and I don't think you can colonize high threat systems anymore). There are too many remnant ships streaming in and they overwhelm the star fortress. The star fortress doesn't have enough killing power against remnant ships to survive the constant stream.
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Topic: [0.95a iron man] AI controlled reliable no-loss farming of double 4 star ordos (Read 1939 times)