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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts (09/24/21)

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Author Topic: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers 1.6.1a  (Read 41036 times)

Sutopia

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers V1.0
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2021, 04:36:28 PM »

Sorry I'm kinda dumb but what does Manufactory Load Balance do?
If a bay has no fighter loss the replacement rate will be moved to another bay that has suffered any fighter loss. A full bay isn’t using the replacement rate after all.
To prevent undermining the minimum replacement rate, a bay providing replacement rate to another bay cannot drop its replacement rate below minimum (0.3).

Arcagnello

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers V1.1
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2021, 03:23:51 AM »

I'm definetly trying this novel-idea-made-mod out in my new campaign, should definetly make carrier play fun!

Will let you know (in a week or two) when I start using these new hullmods on my Luddic Church/Path ships!
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latua95

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers V1.1
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2021, 07:56:34 AM »

hello? Can I reprint your mod please?
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Sutopia

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers V1.1
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2021, 08:09:37 AM »

hello? Can I reprint your mod please?
What are you trying to do?
I won’t give any permission without a context.

The Soldier

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers V1.1
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2021, 05:01:19 PM »

Erm, with Bomber External Hardpoints, did you expect it to also double the munitions for missile weapons? Someone must've ordered 16 Atropos torpedoes at once from a just pair of Trident wings. Or this unholy number of Sabots from a set of Longbow wings. Don't even get me started on what an Astral will do. All the speed nerf does is promote the carrier to get closer to battle, which is for the better anyway because of shorter recycle times. I'm also fairly certain that fighter speeds are scuffed on the return, I saw some Tridents returning at a neat 390su/s, and Flash bombers coming back at the ludicrous speed of 510su/s.

As a side note, the carrier core hull mods are also listed under the Special tab, probably not needed there since there's an entire tab dedicated to them. Also, the Gunship Heavy Ordnance and Bomber External Hardpoint hull mods are also listed under Weapons - should probably be removed from there since they don't directly affect the carrier's own weapons.
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latua95

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers V1.1
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2021, 05:25:20 PM »

Moving mainly here
https://www.fossic.org
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Sutopia

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers V1.1
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2021, 09:12:07 PM »

Erm, with Bomber External Hardpoints, did you expect it to also double the munitions for missile weapons? Someone must've ordered 16 Atropos torpedoes at once from a just pair of Trident wings. Or this unholy number of Sabots from a set of Longbow wings. Don't even get me started on what an Astral will do. All the speed nerf does is promote the carrier to get closer to battle, which is for the better anyway because of shorter recycle times. I'm also fairly certain that fighter speeds are scuffed on the return, I saw some Tridents returning at a neat 390su/s, and Flash bombers coming back at the ludicrous speed of 510su/s.

That was exactly what I meant to do? Double missile ammo.
The extremely reduced speed makes DPS not significantly increased {1+1 > (2.5 + 1)/2}, if at all, but increases burst potential. It also makes bomber more exposed and much easier to shoot down during the approach.
However I do see the flaw when it applies to torpedo types - or any single firing high damage ammo that was not intended to be fired in quick succession.
There, done - added a minimum re-fire delay for one-off missiles. This will break if a mod is using a single ammo gun bomber but I highly doubt who would ever do that.

The speed is now fixed as well. For some reason the status multiplier can only be applied once per source - thus I should just set multiply modifier to 1 instead of inverse penalty.

Sadly I have yet to figure out how to force AI focus target during Bastion and Bastion is rendering certain bomber AIs not dropping bombs at all.

The Soldier

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers 1.12
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2021, 10:55:58 PM »

There, done - added a minimum re-fire delay for one-off missiles. This will break if a mod is using a single ammo gun bomber but I highly doubt who would ever do that.
*cough*

That aside, still a ridiculously powerful system I'm sure will get some good use in the hands of enterprising carrier commanders.

Not sure if you'll be able to fix the Bastion stuff, it's definitely a vanilla issue. Hopefully David or Alex will be able to help that that in the future. And yeah, I forgot to mention, bomber AI is confused when only able to set to Regroup - those with guided munitions tend to do just fine (like Daggers, Tridents etc.) but those with bombs or unguided torpedoes almost never fire. Iin particular, I've seen bomb-equipped bombers act in very strange ways with Bastion. What if the Engagement range was set to some small, but non-0 value, maybe 100? For all intents and purposes, no engagement range, but it might kick the AI into acting properly. Might come with it's own baggage, but it's a thought.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 11:56:53 PM by The Soldier »
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dcong89

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers 1.12
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2021, 11:12:55 PM »

with this mod + Fighter Expansion Rebalanced mod , my carrier now too OPs :P
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Sutopia

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers 1.12
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2021, 11:48:21 PM »

*cough*
It's not even possible to set the refire delay for this one with standard API modifying RoF since it's +infinity.


Again I don't want to post unnecessary additional restrictions regarding mod fighter - I'll blame the mod providing such fighter if they turned out OP  :P
During my own testing after the re-fire delay added it doesn't seem too bad if you're trying to keep carrier at safe distance - which AI usually does.
It is extremely useful during retreat but pursuit becomes nigh impossible, so there's that.

CrimsonPhalanx

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers 1.12
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2021, 06:22:43 AM »

I have some ideas I want to suggest, but as I only played a bit of the mod some of these might not work as well as they do in my head.

1. A hullmod that increases the fighter wing size (and replacement rate to compensate) at the cost of firepower/damage done, basically the idea is to trade crew casualties to spread out the damage, so losing one fighter would mean losing a smaller amount of firepower. Or alternatively, this is probably harder to make, but have extra weaponless decoys added to the wing to soak up damage.

2. A cheap/free hullmod that reduces fighter cost (well, cheap enough to not make it cost more in total), but the fighters will be severely weakened, the idea is to mount sub par versions of high cost fighters on weaker carriers.

3. probably some endurance core for the carriers that give them better replacement rate recovery at the cost of the carrier stats, like slowed speed or cut down flux to use for the replacement recovery.
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Sutopia

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers 1.12
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2021, 07:37:22 AM »

I have some ideas I want to suggest, but as I only played a bit of the mod some of these might not work as well as they do in my head.

1. A hullmod that increases the fighter wing size (and replacement rate to compensate) at the cost of firepower/damage done, basically the idea is to trade crew casualties to spread out the damage, so losing one fighter would mean losing a smaller amount of firepower. Or alternatively, this is probably harder to make, but have extra weaponless decoys added to the wing to soak up damage.

2. A cheap/free hullmod that reduces fighter cost (well, cheap enough to not make it cost more in total), but the fighters will be severely weakened, the idea is to mount sub par versions of high cost fighters on weaker carriers.

3. probably some endurance core for the carriers that give them better replacement rate recovery at the cost of the carrier stats, like slowed speed or cut down flux to use for the replacement recovery.
The first two are hard no.

First one as hard as I tried it requires extremely janky implementation involving juggling and tracking every fighter of a wing per frame and add extra fighter to wing accordingly which is glitchy at best.
Second one is against general modding regarding OP manipulation, any hullmod modifying OP cost should be built in.

Third one I did have a draft about Enduring Core but not what you’re thinking here. Increment of replacement speed recovery is likely not noticed by AI algorithm if at all.
Current design of Enduring Core is healing (remote repair) fighters within certain radius of the carrier, or something like that. Non-bombers never try to dock to repair afaik so I think this would be nice for player to ensure they’re not sending planes that’s gonna explode with the slightest touch. However it doesn’t seem strong enough for a standalone core and I need some other effects in the same bucket to make the core happen.
Increasing recovery rate is likely not an option due to overlap with expanded deck crew.

CrimsonPhalanx

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers 1.12
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2021, 08:22:05 AM »

Ohh the idea for the Enduring core sounds interesting, for other effects I can only think of reduced damage, but it overlaps with bastion. Not sure if its possible but since its in a limited range would making the fighters go faster when they are called back to the carrier to regroup so they can reach the healing zone easier be a good idea? This way its more like a hit and run playstyle where they go in, fight a bit, and quickly run back to repair.

Either way I'm excited to see the results, I absolutely love the ability to specialize carriers so keep up the good work!
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jlrperkins

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers 1.12
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2021, 08:33:28 AM »

Interesting.

Regarding point 2: Is there a way to define a hullmod so its effects are changed if the hullmod is made permanent using a story point? Then you could have a hullmod that provides a bonus when it's not permanent, and a different/enhanced bonus when it's made permanent. This may be a way to implement #2 without stepping on the "hullmods that modify OP cost must be built-in"

I have some ideas I want to suggest, but as I only played a bit of the mod some of these might not work as well as they do in my head.

1. A hullmod that increases the fighter wing size (and replacement rate to compensate) at the cost of firepower/damage done, basically the idea is to trade crew casualties to spread out the damage, so losing one fighter would mean losing a smaller amount of firepower. Or alternatively, this is probably harder to make, but have extra weaponless decoys added to the wing to soak up damage.

2. A cheap/free hullmod that reduces fighter cost (well, cheap enough to not make it cost more in total), but the fighters will be severely weakened, the idea is to mount sub par versions of high cost fighters on weaker carriers.

3. probably some endurance core for the carriers that give them better replacement rate recovery at the cost of the carrier stats, like slowed speed or cut down flux to use for the replacement recovery.
The first two are hard no.

First one as hard as I tried it requires extremely janky implementation involving juggling and tracking every fighter of a wing per frame and add extra fighter to wing accordingly which is glitchy at best.
Second one is against general modding regarding OP manipulation, any hullmod modifying OP cost should be built in.

Third one I did have a draft about Enduring Core but not what you’re thinking here. Increment of replacement speed recovery is likely not noticed by AI algorithm if at all.
Current design of Enduring Core is healing (remote repair) fighters within certain radius of the carrier, or something like that. Non-bombers never try to dock to repair afaik so I think this would be nice for player to ensure they’re not sending planes that’s gonna explode with the slightest touch. However it doesn’t seem strong enough for a standalone core and I need some other effects in the same bucket to make the core happen.
Increasing recovery rate is likely not an option due to overlap with expanded deck crew.
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Sutopia

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Re: [0.95a] [Hullmod] Modern Carriers 1.12
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2021, 08:40:44 AM »

Interesting.

Regarding point 2: Is there a way to define a hullmod so its effects are changed if the hullmod is made permanent using a story point? Then you could have a hullmod that provides a bonus when it's not permanent, and a different/enhanced bonus when it's made permanent. This may be a way to implement #2 without stepping on the "hullmods that modify OP cost must be built-in"

It is definitely possible but why would you do that?
I am personally against any idea of story points providing “exclusive” content. It would also make hull mod description complicated at best. I don’t think it’s the right approach.

However it does seem okay to do something like, say, 40% reduced replacement time but is launched at -50% starting CR, making them very likely to malfunction especially if the carrier is not at decent CR %.
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