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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24)

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Author Topic: System Expertise Balance  (Read 2926 times)

Amoebka

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Re: System Expertise Balance
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2021, 06:35:47 AM »

Doom was more or less fine until Systems Expertise and elite Phase Mastery came. 
This is simply Orwellian. Doom was overpowered in 0.9.1a. Being "one class above" shouldn't mean "can kill entire fleets by itself with zero risk".
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Megas

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Re: System Expertise Balance
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2021, 06:43:57 AM »

This is simply Orwellian. Doom was overpowered in 0.9.1a. Being "one class above" shouldn't mean "can kill entire fleets by itself with zero risk".
Like any other capital did at the time (but requiring more finesse and with less PPT than a real capital)?  Strong, yes.  More overpowered than a capital at the time, no.
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Amoebka

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Re: System Expertise Balance
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2021, 06:46:53 AM »

No capital, other than Conquest and maybe Odyssey could solo fleets by themselves. And those two required very specific character builds. Doom could be used as-is by everyone.

Do you seriously believe you could solo fleets with an Onslaught, or that Doom was a worse use of 40 dp than it?
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Megas

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Re: System Expertise Balance
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2021, 06:54:13 AM »

What kind of fleets?  Surely not Ordos with Radiants?

Whenever I fought endgame fleets last release, Doom was the first one to run out of PPT (even with Combat Expertise and Hardened Subsystems), or about the same time as my carriers.  I had one or two Dooms, a d-mod Conquest, carriers, and various cruisers like Falcons and Eagles; I had multi-round combats.  Once I added Paragon and better equipped ships, I could finish fights in one round.

Last release, Doom seemed to perform close to a 40 to 45 DP capital, but with less PPT, durability, and firepower.  It made up for that with speed and mines.
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Amoebka

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Re: System Expertise Balance
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2021, 07:48:25 AM »

I have soloed single-Radiant Ordos with a Conquest. I think somebody posted a video of soloing a double-Radiant one (was it maybe SCC?). Somebody else on reddit mentioned doing ordos with an Odyssey, but I'm a bit sceptical about that one.
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TaLaR

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Re: System Expertise Balance
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2021, 09:41:25 AM »

Doom costs almost as much DP as a capital (35 vs 40 of Conquest), I don't see anything wrong with having similar performance.

I also agree with Megas that nerfing systems so that skill only returns you to current baseline performance is not the way.
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Thaago

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Re: System Expertise Balance
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2021, 10:17:09 AM »

Much as I often advocate for swinging the nerf hammer, I think Doom's last version were in a decent spot and didn't need a nerf. They were powerful and dangerous to the player, but not much more than I'd expect from a mobile "capital" (35DP) unit. They were nasty against fighters and frigates, but cruisers could deal with them pretty easily in isolation (unless something fluxes the cruiser up, then its mine strike time!), and they could always be waited out in the worst case.

If the design goal is to have unofficered dooms be "dangerous" and officered dooms be "extremely dangerous, but not unstoppable monsters" then I think its more the skills that need to be tweaked rather than the base ship. Sutopia's current proposal for this skill change where extra regenerating charges are removed would be a good step to stop the "surprise, 8 mines!" of current dooms. Phase Mastery's speed boost is also a big culprit... Dooms last version were slow enough that they could be pressured until they were forced out of phase, then gunned/missiles down. Now they can usually retreat completely out of range, vent, and come back in.
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