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Author Topic: How do you win a fights against fleets in this update?  (Read 2466 times)

DrSalty

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How do you win a fights against fleets in this update?
« on: May 04, 2021, 06:57:07 AM »

I can barely take a fleet with 3 Brilliant-class ships 6 max if i take some decent losses and I have yet to beat a fleet with a Radiant-class ship in it at all.
My fleet has 2 Odyssey-class and a whole bunch of Omen and Fury all beefed up as much as I can. Yet still I can't destroy these fleets.
How are you meant to or is this just a case of "avoid at all costs"?
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Arcagnello

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Re: How do you win a fights against fleets in this update?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2021, 07:13:43 AM »

I can barely take a fleet with 3 Brilliant-class ships 6 max if i take some decent losses and I have yet to beat a fleet with a Radiant-class ship in it at all.
My fleet has 2 Odyssey-class and a whole bunch of Omen and Fury all beefed up as much as I can. Yet still I can't destroy these fleets.
How are you meant to or is this just a case of "avoid at all costs"?

Odisseys, Omens and Furies are all amazing ships, but fighting Remnant requires both specialized builds and a refined game plan to beat them.

Are you playing within the standard Battle Sizes?
What are the setups of your Ships? How mani INtegrated Hullmods do they have? Do all the biggest ships have an officer? WHat skills do they have based on the ship they're in comand of?
Both your Odisseys have Sabot Pods with expanded missile racks to break down shields right?
What's the setup of your omens? Do you send them to distract the enemy or do they escort your Furies and Odisseys to both provide point defence and EMP damage, possibly AM Blaster fire?
What combination of ships do you deploy at the start of the battle against remnants? Do you make sure you've got enough fast ships to contest and capture buoys in order to both deploy as much ships as possible and split the enemy forces that will scramble to contest them?
What kind of tactic do you use while fighing [redacted]? What is the role of every ship you deploy?

Give us tryhards some details and we may just have enough information to make an already quite competitive fleet perfectly able to deal with [redacted], including Ordos.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 07:18:14 AM by Arcagnello »
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DrSalty

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Re: How do you win a fights against fleets in this update?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2021, 07:42:31 AM »

Agreed great ships (except for Omens that suck, but I don't have a tempest blueprint yet) and require specialisation, in general response, yeah I have specialised them and they are all beefed up to as powerful as you can possibly make them.

My Odyssey class's can 1v2 head on assault Onslaught's and win with no damage taken. Not Sabots (since my AI has never used any of the Sabots I have ever put on my ships) and have used Annihilator pods instead.

I have tried telling the omens to run escort AND distraction in separate runs and they do nothing. During escort they don't want to get behind enemies and end up just getting in the way, they don't offer much defence against the major damage dealing weapons, the free EMP damage is negligible and AM blasters do nothing on them except make them weaker shields wise, their only redeeming factor. In distraction they tend to not actually distract anything and get rinsed on their own so that's a total waste (they suck compared to tempests that actually CAN fight).

Tempests and two Hyperion's get me the buoys instantly on game start so yeah all good there.

And tactics wise this game HAS NONE! Its a game of AI chance. This isn't an RTS game where you can actually directly tell ships what to do, they will always interpret and decide for themselves. I say this because I HAVE actually tried using some "tactics" but the best result has always come from just leaving the AI to go on its own (with the exception of telling them to get buoys and escort ships) even then I find telling ships to escort often screws up the AI and on restarting the fight it ends up better just going hands off. If you so much as decide to tell them to kill or hrass an enemy that's surrounded by your ships (unless its a weak ship) it will retreat instantly because the AI cheats like hell, while your ships chase it and then get rinsed by all the other ships they ignore. This game has no real in-combat tactics.
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DrSalty

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Re: How do you win a fights against fleets in this update?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2021, 07:48:23 AM »

Give us tryhards some details and we may just have enough information to make an already quite competitive fleet perfectly able to deal with [redacted], including Ordos.

Actually here is a link to my current save file. Have fun :P
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ZCgntipJ86O8ERmBtpqPAbTmyqINF8C4?usp=sharing
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Rayneth

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Re: How do you win a fights against fleets in this update?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2021, 07:52:32 AM »

The [REDACTED] fleets have several advantages over you, so you have to build or plan to mitigate that disadvantage. For example, they tend to field lots of high levelled, all Elite skilled officers, so they'll always field more DP than you due to how the force deployment is divided up between fleets. Their ships tend to be cheaper to deploy than their performance indicates, most notably the battleship which only costs 40 DP despite being stronger than a Paragon (most of the time). This is pure observation on my part so it might not be true, but I've also noticed the AI of the [REDACTED] is better too, they death blob and focus down targets much better than any of my other opponents.

Most high tech would struggle against those kinds of advantages, since you're they'll usually win the flux war and be the first to do hull damage. I can see why Odysseys struggle, they're flanking ships but you don't seem to have a solid frontline. Maybe you could try fielding some beefy low-tech capitals? Onslaughts' are pretty good. My favorite Anti-[REDACTED] fleet consists almost entirely of Legion XIVs for example. With this and some playmaker maneuvers with my player piloted Hyperion, I can take on triple Radiant fleets semi-reliably.
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Arcagnello

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Re: How do you win a fights against fleets in this update?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2021, 09:03:02 AM »

Spoiler
Quote
Agreed great ships (except for Omens that suck, but I don't have a tempest blueprint yet) and require specialisation, in general response, yeah I have specialised them and they are all beefed up to as powerful as you can possibly make them.
[close]

The Omen is, without a doubt, one of the only two 5 Deployment Point frigades (along with the Glimmer Automated Drone Frigade) that can stick to late game and be very, very useful.

It's very fast, it's got an amazing 360 shield already coming with the ship, it's got the absolute best defensive frigade skill alongside the Fortress SHield of the Monitor as that EMP arc shoots down both missiles and fighters with amazing quickness, it's a great distraction for the enemy as it's quite hard to kill.

Give us a screenshot of it and we can give you a few ideas on how to set it up properly. It's a good enough frigade to warrent one, two or even three integrated hullmods even without wolfpack tactics or an officer on it.

Spoiler
Quote
My Odyssey class's can 1v2 head on assault Onslaught's and win with no damage taken. Not Sabots (since my AI has never used any of the Sabots I have ever put on my ships) and have used Annihilator pods instead.
[close]

The simulation Onslaught is a pushover. It litterally has no kinetic weapons and has a hullmod setup and an Ordicance point distribution that makes my skin crawl. It's basically a horseshoe-shaped punching bag to test your cruiser and capital ship designs with, nothing more and nothing less.

The must have Hullmods and weapons for a Remnant-mulching Odissey are the following:
-Shield Conversion: Front for a 360° shield with half the upkeep and that raises itself faster
-Hardened shields to mitigate as much damage with the least amount of hard flux generated
-Triple Sabot SRM pods firing in linked mode and a Hurricane MIRV. They go into separate weapon groups. Do not keep them togheder
-Expanded Missile Racks for the aforementioned 55 Ordinance Points worth of missiles to have twice the ammo for only 30OP
-A choice between double Xyphos SUpport Wing, Double Longbow Bomber or one each. 2x Xyphos works better for AI control since it basically never gets shot down inside the Odissey 360 shield and provides with additional point defence and 4 Ion beams.

You can go cheap on the two large energy mounts and just install two Autopulse lasers with Expanded Magazines, but I highly suggest you to switch them for Plasma Cannons with ITU as soon as possible whenever you get story points to integrate hullmods into the Odissey.

The Hullmods you want to integrate into the Odissey are Expanded Missile Racks, Hardened Shields and Integrated Targeting Unit in this order.

Spoiler
Quote
I have tried telling the omens to run escort AND distraction in separate runs and they do nothing. During escort they don't want to get behind enemies and end up just getting in the way, they don't offer much defence against the major damage dealing weapons, the free EMP damage is negligible and AM blasters do nothing on them except make them weaker shields wise, their only redeeming factor. In distraction they tend to not actually distract anything and get rinsed on their own so that's a total waste (they suck compared to tempests that actually CAN fight).
[close]

Define "do nothing". Do you have a screenshot?
Escort orders basically tell the escorting ship to stay behind the ship that's being escorted and screen it from enemies while staying outside the allied ship's firing line. They will not pursue the enemy and just make sure no enemy gets to the back of the ship being protected.
Tempest is the most easily configurable, overpowered frigade in the game that does not actually require either Wolfpack tactics or an officer driving it to be, well, overpowered. Almost any other frigade compared to it seems weak, which is the reason why the Tempest is getting nerfed in the next patch/hotfix (alex said so himself, in a rather hilarious manner).


Spoiler
Quote
And tactics wise this game HAS NONE! Its a game of AI chance. This isn't an RTS game where you can actually directly tell ships what to do, they will always interpret and decide for themselves. I say this because I HAVE actually tried using some "tactics" but the best result has always come from just leaving the AI to go on its own (with the exception of telling them to get buoys and escort ships) even then I find telling ships to escort often screws up the AI and on restarting the fight it ends up better just going hands off. If you so much as decide to tell them to kill or hrass an enemy that's surrounded by your ships (unless its a weak ship) it will retreat instantly because the AI cheats like hell, while your ships chase it and then get rinsed by all the other ships they ignore. This game has no real in-combat tactics.
[close]

The AI does not cheat in any way or form. It even has numbered orders that regenerate overtime during the battle. Give the same officers and ship personalities, the AI uses the same ship algorithms your ship use. The only massive difference is you and your ability to use a varied number of orders to alter the ship AI to have it do what you want at the best of its abilities.

Do you have screenshots showing how the AI does not do what you tell it to when using direct/passive orders? I think we'll be able to help you understand what is not functioning.
Give us tryhards some details and we may just have enough information to make an already quite competitive fleet perfectly able to deal with [redacted], including Ordos.

Actually here is a link to my current save file. Have fun :P
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ZCgntipJ86O8ERmBtpqPAbTmyqINF8C4?usp=sharing


I'm rather caught up in IRL stuff, a Starsector campaign and forum ***.posting so I'm afraid I can't go ahead and try your save file out at the moment.

Trust me on the fact that if you can give us some ship setup and battle screenshots (preferably in the tactical view to see what orders you're giving your ships) we'll be able to figure out whatever combat and AI issue you have, or at least give it a solid explaination as to why it happens and how to work around it.

The [REDACTED] fleets have several advantages over you, so you have to build or plan to mitigate that disadvantage. For example, they tend to field lots of high levelled, all Elite skilled officers, so they'll always field more DP than you due to how the force deployment is divided up between fleets. Their ships tend to be cheaper to deploy than their performance indicates, most notably the battleship which only costs 40 DP despite being stronger than a Paragon (most of the time). This is pure observation on my part so it might not be true, but I've also noticed the AI of the [REDACTED] is better too, they death blob and focus down targets much better than any of my other opponents.

Most high tech would struggle against those kinds of advantages, since you're they'll usually win the flux war and be the first to do hull damage. I can see why Odysseys struggle, they're flanking ships but you don't seem to have a solid frontline. Maybe you could try fielding some beefy low-tech capitals? Onslaughts' are pretty good. My favorite Anti-[REDACTED] fleet consists almost entirely of Legion XIVs for example. With this and some playmaker maneuvers with my player piloted Hyperion, I can take on triple Radiant fleets semi-reliably.

There's a reason the Odissey is worth 45 Deployment Points and litterally every other capital ship aside from the Paragon is only worth 40. It's a highly mobile, extremely versatile and entirely self sufficient battlecruiser with two hangar bays that can be refit to more or less just be stapled on any fleet composition and work amazingly well, even under AI control.

I've still got to see the kind of setup he's running but from the way he briefly mentioned the fact he's using 3 Annihalator Rocket pods I can already tell the AI in charge of driving it into battle is having an aneurism trying to pilot it properly.
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Rayneth

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Re: How do you win a fights against fleets in this update?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2021, 09:14:11 AM »

Looked at the Savefile myself, the Odysseys are both AI piloted with an Aurora being the flag ship.

I am not a huge fan of the Aurora build personally. Advanced optics + Dedicated targeting core with a ship I attribute more for brawling won't go too well together. I am a fan of SO Auroras myself with triple blasters and 5x Antimatter Blasters for some terrible alpha strikes and sustained damage, though a few people like Sabot Auroras.
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Low Settings

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Re: How do you win a fights against fleets in this update?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2021, 09:23:43 AM »

You can beat 4 Radiant ordos with sunders, furies safety overrides, story points, reinforced bulkheads and field repairs 100% of the time with no piloting needed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n4HNMZHV9c&t=139s
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 10:07:08 AM by Low Settings »
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