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Author Topic: Carriers mid-late game  (Read 9664 times)

Scorpixel

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2021, 03:19:47 PM »

I've tried some carrier with a modded game (Mayasuran Navy and Detailed Combat results) and tried out some of their Battlecarriers, the other mod letting me see how effective some of the LPCs are doing.

They tend to do alright. I usually just field Broadswords now after trying out the various other LPC, severely disappointed in the [REDACTED] interceptors especially. The Broadswords get reduced to just 1/2 a Light machine gun after awhile due to their absolutely pathetic Flux dissipation stats, but their flares and the sheer durability per OP you're paying for makes up for it.

They oddly still do about as much damage as Gladius and Thunders.

Still, they are more a compliment to the guns of my Battlecarriers than anything else. I can't ever seem to get the bombers to do any work, they just get shot to pieces unless it's against fleets I was going to bulldoze through anyway.
Oh Mayasuran ships, poor things must have went from top tier to anemic half-warships.
Liked the Mithuna a lot for exploration, very good anchor due to capital range and obscene dissipation.
Current version most likely gets ravaged by [REDACTED] frigates despite S-modding.

Now that sparks are meh and replacement nerfed. Drone/Xyphos it is for every battlecarrier, because those don't kamikaze.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 03:23:44 PM by Scorpixel »
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ChilliCrab

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2021, 08:18:19 PM »

It feels like the bigger carrier ships DP value isn't really worth it in comparison to deploying multiple smaller carriers that provide the same level of fighter/bomber cover.

For example someone mentioned 2 herons instead of an Astral seems better...
  • Provides same level of fighter/bomber deployment at 10DP less cost so you can have other ships fill in those points.
  • Bigger carriers are slow bricks that cannot easily disengage in comparison to smaller carriers that can easily pull back if enemy is pushing your forces back.
  • Does fighter replacement rate or whatever the 100% Fighters stat that drops over time recover faster for bigger ships? If not then doesn't it make sense to split the wings to smaller carriers so it replenishes faster?

In exchange for above you get better armor/shields/weapon slots etc but carrier's job isn't really to be a frontline fighter in the first place.

Can someone sell me on bigger carriers?
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WeiTuLo

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2021, 08:18:44 PM »

Right now I'm evaluating retiring the XIV Legion. It's too slow to keep up with the fleet and I'm not sure it brings enough for its massive logistical profile. Astral was even more disappointing. Doing trial runs of Double Cobra Drover again. As for fighter Condors, it's really hard to justify the 10DP for what it brings to the fight, though maybe I should return to using the pilum instead of resonators.
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Thaago

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2021, 08:34:34 PM »

It feels like the bigger carrier ships DP value isn't really worth it in comparison to deploying multiple smaller carriers that provide the same level of fighter/bomber cover.

For example someone mentioned 2 herons instead of an Astral seems better...
  • Provides same level of fighter/bomber deployment at 10DP less cost so you can have other ships fill in those points.
  • Bigger carriers are slow bricks that cannot easily disengage in comparison to smaller carriers that can easily pull back if enemy is pushing your forces back.
  • Does fighter replacement rate or whatever the 100% Fighters stat that drops over time recover faster for bigger ships? If not then doesn't it make sense to split the wings to smaller carriers so it replenishes faster?

In exchange for above you get better armor/shields/weapon slots etc but carrier's job isn't really to be a frontline fighter in the first place.

Can someone sell me on bigger carriers?

It depends on what is being put in the carriers. Because fighter wings coordinate their strike on a single carrier, and because the only bomber shots that matter are those that get through point defense AND shields, its a lot better to have 1 big bomber strike instead of 2 smaller bombers strikes. In that way a bomber Astral is better than 2 bomber Herons. For interceptors or other "pressure" type carriers though, there's less incentive to have a unified strike: if 1 of the ships assigned to the fighter strike's fighters get their 10 seconds after the others thats not ideal, but its ok because the original fighters are probably still around and firing.

I think, but not 100% so if someone knows for sure please correct me, fighter replacement rate tickdown depends on the number of individual wings that are below 50% fighters remaining. So an Astral could have 2 wings destroyed but not be ticking down at all if the other 4 are operational. I think? So large carriers offer a certain amount of buffer to tickdown. Its not really a huge effect though.

Astrals are the only pure capital carrier and I haven't tried them yet this version, so I can't speak from personal experience on them. I'd advise not to neglect the missile mounts... 2 large missiles is a lot of firepower for long ranged support. Astrals also have a great system for bombers, though I think it got a cooldown nerf. Maybe they are good, maybe not! Haven't tried.

Right now I'm evaluating retiring the XIV Legion. It's too slow to keep up with the fleet and I'm not sure it brings enough for its massive logistical profile. Astral was even more disappointing. Doing trial runs of Double Cobra Drover again. As for fighter Condors, it's really hard to justify the 10DP for what it brings to the fight, though maybe I should return to using the pilum instead of resonators.

Yeah if the Legion can't engage in gun/missile fire because the rest of the fleet is faster, it just doesn't fit. I've had good success with them, but if they can't engage as warships then they are down 2 wings for nothing. I haven't had any success with Cobras though... I don't think they are very good because the total wing hitpoint is so low and if they run into any stray cover they pop. Khopesh have become my reliable compromise bomber: not the fastest but fast, not the most damage but pretty good, not the toughest but also not bad, and cheap at 12 DP.

I like Thunder Condors and Talon + Gladius Condors (and I haven't used a claw + gladius condor yet but I bet it and/or claw broadsword would be good). They are vulnerable as all hell but they bring the most wings to the field for cheap.
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Koyocire

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2021, 08:36:25 PM »

In 0.91, I was a carrier guy.  Loved piloting the Heron and Legion.  In 0.95, I tried really really hard to make the carriers work.  Nothing I did felt remotely effective.  I don’t see the point in flying a Heron anymore when I am significantly more effective in a Tempest or Fury (or hell, a Shrike).  The fighters are too slow, have all the impact of a wet noodle, and die way to fast.  Carriers are over priced, OP starved, and suffer from brittle bone disease.  Would be fine if there were some wow skills, even if player only, to bring them up to par...but there isn’t.  Carriers are dead to me until the next update.
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prav

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2021, 12:53:31 AM »

If the AI wouldn't send them head-in first into the thickest blob of ships it can find, then maybe they would be better.

What I'm seeing fairly often in larger battles is fighter groups being sent past the primary line blob, to attack a supposedly exposed ship behind the line.

A great move, if the fighters would actually survive going past that much PD firepower. But they all die, accomplishing absolutely nothing.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2021, 01:47:40 AM »

Spoiler
In my experience carriers work well against every enemy except Omega's - I've used them up until the late game vs multi Radiant Ordo's just fine. They are like most other ships: if you want them to perform well in endgame they need an officer (for reliability engineering and one or both fighter skills) and like all other ships they receive a large bonus from S mods. Omegas just have the nasty feature of spawning EMP arcs all the time, which fighters can't handle.

For skills: Boosted CR is unfortunately better than carrier group, simply because it provides other bonuses to the fighters (speed, damage, defense, autoaim accuracy). It also helps all the other ships in the fleet. I think Carrier Group is a fine skill and its scaling isn't much of a problem for 240DP mixed fleets - but Crew Training is just stronger. EW vs Fighter Uplink is a closer call. EW is generally a better skill, but Fighter Uplink is extremely good too (better than Carrier Group for most battles). This is especially true for fleets where every ship has ECCM for missiles (and every ship using decent missiles should have ECCM). For non-missile fleets the range penalty is more severe and I think its still worth investing in winning the ECM war.

For the skills: for a bomber carrier, reliability engineering and strike commander. For an interceptor/heavy fighter carrier: reliability engineering and maybe point defense but I honestly don't think its worth it. Fighters go after other fighters and missiles only incidentally so its mostly a wasted skill: interceptors are their for killing frigates, heavy fighters are for killing destroyers and raising shield flux for other things to get in a killing blow. Something like a low level merc would work, but its also nice to put on the missile skill and a few defensive ones as well to keep the carrier alive if things go wrong.
[close]

You're really hyping my low tech carrier fleet before fighting the Dorito Gank Squad aren't cha huh?  :P

I personally ditched the carriers in my second Campaign because I did not have all three carrier focused skill tree picks. You can reasonably reach them all with just 11 skills (going up the Leadership tree once and up to level 3 a second time), then going up to the level 3 technology skill) and then set your skills up as you wish.

I'd suggest having BOTH Point Defence and Strike Commander on your carrier officers (it really helps to have at least the level 4 leadership skill allowing for level 6 officers with 2 elite skills) since some bombers have very good PD (Longbow being the best one) and it both allows flexibility to your carriers and the ability of "spam bombers" like Piranha and Khoopesh to really wipe the floor with fighter swarms if they happen to go thru their ordnance.

Spoiler
Carriers can have their uses - mostly because they aren't meant for the front line and don't have to have deep flux reserves. They can take potshots with the longest-range gun you can fit on them, provide anti-fighter cover to other ships (I often skip on point defence for some ships, and they'd need to run for cover once swarmed by enemy fighters), provide some fleet-wise bonus (ECM, ECCM etc), or pressure enemies using missiles.

For some reason, I also find 2 Herons to be more useful than one Astral.
[close]

An Astral with 3 Integrated hullmods can fit 4 Longbows, 2 Tridents, Expanded Deck Crew, Two Hurricane MIRVs, Expanded Missile Racks and ECCM. It's absolutely disgusting if it also has an officer with Elite Strike Commander, Elite Missile Specialization and Systems Expertise to spam the Recall ability.

It packs volumes of disgusting firepower two 3-smod herons would only dream of, and that's why it costs 45FP. The "only" problem with it being it's quite a slow ship and it does not fit all that well on fleets with high mobility and not enough staying power to hold the enemy away from it, unless you make covering for your Astral(s) the main focus of the rest of your combat force.

Spoiler
I get considerably more performance out of my Legion XIV's two Hurricanes than I do out of its four fighter wings. Is this where the Legion XIV is supposed to get most of its power?
[close]

The two large missile turrets are indeed the main way for the XIV Legion to deal damage. This for example is my setup I'm currently using:
Officer (it now has Elite Point Defence and Elite Missile Specialization)
Spoiler
[close]
Ship setup (it now has two normal flaks instead of the duals and 3 Heavy Needlers instead of the HVDs)
Spoiler
[close]

Broadswords are your best friend in an XIV legion spamming the best large missile weapon in the game. They not only are a wall of HP and armor holding the enemy back, they even deal very high damage to shields, distract enemy PD and even deploy flares on their own for the target ship to be almost completely powerless when the double Hurricane of death comes in to finish the job.

Spoiler
Quote
Doesen't the Point Defence explicitly state that it also applies to fighter LPCs tough? Wait let me just get a screenshot of the skill...
Well, damn.  I guess it does.  That'd my bad.

Kinda unintuitive.  Why in the world would a hullmod intended for point defense actually be the the most powerful fighter v fighter skill in the game?
[close]

It does sound unintuitive at first, but then I figured out a lot (if not most) of fighters actually use point defence weapons as armaments (broadword/Talon just to name two), while some like the Xyphos even ARE glorified PD platforms that generate no flux and have a free Ion Beam. I have not yet fully observed my Elite Point Defence XIV Legion to see if its Broadsword wings actually have 100 more range on their light machineguns, but I would not be surprised if they actually did.

Spoiler
If the AI wouldn't send them head-in first into the thickest blob of ships it can find, then maybe they would be better.

The fighters simply deploy way too early for starters hitting each others mainline before anything even happened. On the flanks it would be more reasonable.

Fighters legitimately being kamikazes that dont return unless they die while on engagement also raises some sanity questions.

In general they die way too much to stray fire, which has to be, because the AI ships aren't "smartly" built.
[close]

AI sends fighters and bombers on either the first enemy that's in range or the one you told it to "Fighter Strike" (if it's in range) by selecting an enemy and pressing the S key over it.

My suggestion? Stick to Broadswords, maybe even Warthogs (if you get the skill improving fighter speed, they really need that one) since they're the most durable fighter LPCs we got at the moment and they even drop flares. Every other fighter LPC (aside from the Lux, maybe) palse in comparison to these twoìs staying power.

Spoiler
Right now I'm evaluating retiring the XIV Legion. It's too slow to keep up with the fleet and I'm not sure it brings enough for its massive logistical profile. Astral was even more disappointing. Doing trial runs of Double Cobra Drover again. As for fighter Condors, it's really hard to justify the 10DP for what it brings to the fight, though maybe I should return to using the pilum instead of resonators.
[close]

It does not need to "keep up" with your fleet all that much if you set it up with Hurricanes and Broadsowrds. Hurricanes have 2500 and bth the main missile and its submunitions go up and over your allies while Broadswords have 4k range. Deploying a XIV Legion with (for example) double Hammer barrage/Reapers and quad Longbow would instead require it to be in direct line of sight with the enemy and quickly drop in effectiveness as the rest of your combat ships get faster and get in its line of fire more and more.

Spoiler
In 0.91, I was a carrier guy.  Loved piloting the Heron and Legion.  In 0.95, I tried really really hard to make the carriers work.  Nothing I did felt remotely effective.  I don’t see the point in flying a Heron anymore when I am significantly more effective in a Tempest or Fury (or hell, a Shrike).  The fighters are too slow, have all the impact of a wet noodle, and die way to fast.  Carriers are over priced, OP starved, and suffer from brittle bone disease.  Would be fine if there were some wow skills, even if player only, to bring them up to par...but there isn’t.  Carriers are dead to me until the next update.
[close]

Have you tried Overridden Moras with triple Perdition/Khopesh, double Sabot SRM pod with Expanded Missile racks and an Officer with Elite Strike Commander, Elite Impact Mitigation, Helsmanship, Reliability Engineering, Missile Specialization and, uh...that other skill reducing hull damage taken? It's one of if not the best low tech overridden ship in the game. It's disgustingly hard to kill with the officer spamming damper field and hits the enemy back just as hard as a standard capital would since point blank Khopesh/Perdition is disgusting and SO does not even reduce fighter replacement times like Unstable Injector does.

It's been a while since I tried Overridden Moras but I think I remember them lasting around 3 minutes with SO, Hardened Subsystems and Reliability Engineering (you don't want to make the Systems Expertise Skill elite before Strike Commander). If you're not going to be happy with that or 3-Smod  Longbow/Trident Herons (with both Nav and ECM package) or 3-Smod Longbow/Trident, double Hurricane (with ECCM and EMR) Astral then I don't know how to help ya  :)



« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 05:10:07 AM by Arcagnello »
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Burvjradzite

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2021, 05:19:40 AM »

Fighter and heavy fighter strategy with carriers got weaken a lot. There are less individual officer skills to boost fighter wings. However. Bombers are still live and still the best option to defeat stations and low tech capitals. I've tried six flashes, six tridents, they work. Interseptors got their role squeezed a bit. Personally, I use one astral with sparks AS a support force just to counter enemy fighters. Frigates cant do much with overwhelming fighter strikes. Makeshift fighter bays still viable for Falcon(p), Hammerhead, Shrike.

WeiTuLo

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2021, 08:06:21 AM »

I had switched back to XIV Legion (From Astral) because Astral was even slower and could not burn drive if it wanted to, and it's 10 DP more. I always use double ECCM Hurricanes on them, they are generally excellent once they get in range. Unless they're going after a frigate or fast destroyer.

In multiple battles including double tesseracts, the tesseract bounty and other easier bounties, there was a good chance that one of my two 18 DP Apogees would do more damage and kill more DP than the XIV Legion. And a frigate could sometimes outperform both.

I think it has a lot to do with how much the front line can shift now that capture points grant additional DP, making mobility important in evening the odds, denying the enemy more DP, and chasing down routing enemies.

So I am doing head to head trials of AI XIV Legion vs AI Drover to see which better fits the anti-heavy strike role in my fleet doctrine on a per DP basis.
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Pappus

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2021, 08:13:47 AM »

Movie


Broadswords and warthogs still die too much to random fire. Not unusual to lose half of them straight up to the mainlines meeting
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Burvjradzite

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2021, 04:09:05 PM »

Quote
Have you tried Overridden Moras with triple Perdition/Khopesh, double Sabot SRM pod with Expanded Missile racks and an Officer with Elite Strike Commander, Elite Impact Mitigation, Helsmanship, Reliability Engineering, Missile Specialization and, uh...that other skill reducing hull damage taken? It's one of if not the best low tech overridden ship in the game. It's disgustingly hard to kill with the officer spamming damper field and hits the enemy back just as hard as a standard capital would since point blank Khopesh/Perdition is disgusting and SO does not even reduce fighter replacement times like Unstable Injector does.


I feel you tingled something deep down in my heart. Could you say more about  SO Moras? What officer personality to use? Is aggressive enough or it will act as a regular carrier just more willing to act. I heard reckless officers on carriers make them more like battle-carrier behaviour. Could you also provide some blueprints of said SO Mora? I'm still can't imagine that myself, it's too bizarre - that's why I'm interested.

Arcagnello

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2021, 05:18:00 PM »

Spoiler
Quote
Have you tried Overridden Moras with triple Perdition/Khopesh, double Sabot SRM pod with Expanded Missile racks and an Officer with Elite Strike Commander, Elite Impact Mitigation, Helsmanship, Reliability Engineering, Missile Specialization and, uh...that other skill reducing hull damage taken? It's one of if not the best low tech overridden ship in the game. It's disgustingly hard to kill with the officer spamming damper field and hits the enemy back just as hard as a standard capital would since point blank Khopesh/Perdition is disgusting and SO does not even reduce fighter replacement times like Unstable Injector does.


I feel you tingled something deep down in my heart. Could you say more about  SO Moras? What officer personality to use? Is aggressive enough or it will act as a regular carrier just more willing to act. I heard reckless officers on carriers make them more like battle-carrier behaviour. Could you also provide some blueprints of said SO Mora? I'm still can't imagine that myself, it's too bizarre - that's why I'm interested.
[close]

SO mora only needs one offensive weapon to act as a direct fire combat ship. A Reckless officer (possibly called Ligma) also helps. I don't have a Mora on hand right now, what I can do however is gve you some directions:

Now that Safety Overrides can't be overridden anymore the Mora kind of struggles OP wise to fit everything it needs to. I do not remember the exact setup but I still have some cornerstones in mind:

Weapons
2x Sabot SRM Pod, Triple Khopesh Wing as main weapons, slap a few offensive weapons (a light assault gun or an autocannon works fine) plus point defence

Hullmods
I can definetly remember myself integrating Expanded Deck Crew, Expanded Missile Racks and Hardened Subsystems. SO may even be the only additional hullmod that even fits in the carrier after that, since it's a whopping 45OP to install.

I'd put the rest of the OP (if any) in vents since they got double the effect with SO installed, which is gojng to be very nice when you're giving it an...

Officer with the following skills:
Elite Systems Expertise (Damper field spam, plus extra PPT)
Reliability Engineering (up to 100% CR if you also have crew training, 100% recovery chance)
Elite Strike Commander (more bomber damage and much better target leading)
Helsmanship (the ship is really sluggish without it)
Missile Specialization (Sabot for the Sabot god!)
Shield Modulation (lowkey the best officer skill in the game)

It does work as well as you'd expect from low tech. Does a lot of damage and an officer making it able to just Spam Damper Field makes it realy, really hard to kill.

I hope it has enough OP to fit those Khopesh Rocket Bombers (Perdition is even more expensive at 15OP per wing instead of 12) since they'd be amazing to have on a point blank combat carrier like that, but I'm really worried about the low OP of the ship since I remember being very constricted.

Spoiler
Movie


Broadswords and warthogs still die too much to random fire. Not unusual to lose half of them straight up to the mainlines meeting
[close]

You could say that tanking enemy fire it's the Broadsword and the Warthog's main job. Stacking as many fighter replacement boosting skills does make them good at their job, better than basically all standard fighters at least. Warthog could be great if it only had a single autocannon and two mortars (I'd even accept it being bumped up in OP price, as long as it's made competitive), but it got a whole lot better in 0.95, it used to be completely useless before this patch, now it's passable.

Also, thanks for lowkey calling me a B-(probably C)movie Director  8)

« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 05:35:35 PM by Arcagnello »
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Burvjradzite

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2021, 06:40:51 PM »

Thanks. I promise i will try this in the next playthrough with fresh officers. Oh, and, what's ligma? Who's joe and there bofa is it with etma?

WeiTuLo

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2021, 07:22:16 PM »

DP is in terms of Pro Rata DP from Detailed Combat Results.

9 Atlas Pirate Bounty 328 DP:
Drover: 35k damage, 15 DP worth of kills
XIV Legion: 34k damage, 12 DP worth of kills

2 Atlas Pirate Ambush Fleet 239 DP:
Drover: 25k damage, 16 DP worth of kills
XIV Legion: 19k damage, 12 DP worth of kills

3 Atlas Pirate Ambush Fleet 249 DP:
Drover: 5k damage, 0 DP worth of kills
XIV Legion: 20k damage, 18 DP worth of kills
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Thaago

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Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2021, 07:27:55 PM »

Oof, yeah looks like the Legion isn't pulling its weight. Other than the last fight the drover seems to be doing pretty well for an AI ship... any idea what was so different about the last fight?
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