Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: Carriers mid-late game  (Read 9666 times)

DrSalty

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 30
    • View Profile
Carriers mid-late game
« on: May 04, 2021, 04:20:26 AM »

Is it just me or are carriers a total waste mid-late game?
Every group you fight has anti-fighter capabilities, can easily be bigger than your fleet too, so your fighters and bombers will all get popped instantly AND efficient use of deployment point is imperative where carriers are expensive as hell for what they provide.
Some craft are useful support wise like Xyphos, wasp/spark and Lux on say an odyssey-class since they stay with-in and close to the ships shields helping boost the mothers fire power or defence, but that's about it.
Early game they are super powerful and rinse pirate fleets, also good against orbital stations... kinda.

Feels like you should use the deployment points to instead put a missile boat, a few tempests or 2 fury/hammerhead/sunderer-class into the fight.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12118
    • View Profile
Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2021, 04:32:54 AM »

They are.  It takes about a minute or so before replacement sinks to about 30% and fighters are effectively out for the rest of the fight.  Carriers are about as gimped as they were in the 0.7.x releases.
Logged

Vextor

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2021, 05:35:54 AM »

I found that 2 talons and 1 broadsword in a Heron is quite good throughout the game since it puts a lot of pressure on high tech enemies' shields, but to be honest, the way currently things are, I wouldn't deploy it for more than 15DP.
Logged

Arcagnello

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1011
  • Arguably Heretical, Definetly Insane
    • View Profile
Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2021, 05:38:21 AM »

I strongly disagree on carriers of any type bring useless in mid to endgame. They can be incredibly potent but the amount of effort required to reduce or even negate their drawbacks has sharply increased with the 0.95 changes:

100% Combat Readiness is a must on all carriers, as it also improves fighter replacement time by 10%, alongside making the ship better in mostly every way.

Integrated Hullmods make nearly all carriers able to field top of the line fighter LPCs and more. A Heron can field two Longbows and a Trident plus ECM package, Nav Package, Expanded deck crew and also a Salamander Pod with ECCM with three integrated hullmods, just to name one case.

Specialized Officers on all carriers not only make the 100% CR goal possible, but they also dramatically increase  the effectiveness of ALL fighters and Bombers. Strike commander not only boosts the damage bomber LPCs do, but it even massively improves missile/rocket/bomb HP and their target leading.

If you have not seen how crazy Perdition Hammer bombers, Khopesh Rocket Bombers and Piranha Carpet Bombers are with Elite Strike Commander, please try it out immediately!

Point Defence also applies to fighters and not just to the carrier ship, making fighter LPCs not only a lot deadlier against enemy fighters but also much more proficient at dealing with incoming ordnance. Both standard and XIV legion massively benefit from Elite Point defence, which if combined with PDAI can turn the entire ship in an almost unbreakable point defence bastion, even by just using Vulcans and the one Xyphos support wing covering the exposed back. I do not know for sure if Elite Point Defence also applies the 100 unit range buff of PD weapons to fighters and bombers, but it would be even more or a no-brainer if it did.

Commander skills like Carrier Group and Fighter Uplink also massively increase the effectiveness of both fighter and bomber LPCs, even after going over the limit. My (hopefully) endgame ready fleet has 16 fighter bays and still gets half the bonus of these two skills, granting me an extra 25%  faster fighter replacement rate, -25% crew lost to fighter losses and 13% extra top speed for all LPCs.

Lastly, I am firmly under the impression carrier groups are not seen as a viable endgame option for the simple reason that we may have extremely expensive and effective Bomber LPCs for endgame, but no expensive fighter wings to speak of. The Warthog has gotten a lot better but it's still not enough to be honest. There are a plethora of very expensive, high end fighter LPCs across many, many mods and I really hope Alex is going to imitate them just a little bit in the future.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 05:40:19 AM by Arcagnello »
Logged
Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.
The therapist removed my F5 key.

DrSalty

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 30
    • View Profile
Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2021, 07:21:29 AM »

I strongly disagree on carriers of any type bring useless in mid to endgame. They can be incredibly potent but the amount of effort required to reduce or even negate their drawbacks has sharply increased with the 0.95 changes:


So which is it? Do you strongly disagree carriers of any type bring useless or do they take a lot of effort to not have drawbacks?

If something is arguably all drawbacks in most cases you can't "strongly" say they aren't useless :P
You cant just say "THEY ARENT USLESS" and then say carrier groups are not seen as a viable endgame option
Hoping they wont be useless in future patches (as you have done); I really hope Alex is going to imitate them just a little bit in the future., isn't related to the current game state is it now?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 07:25:54 AM by DrSalty »
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12118
    • View Profile
Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2021, 07:34:36 AM »

Expended Deck Crew alone is not enough, which means player must get Leadership 3, and maybe Reliability Engineering.  If player cannot fit carrier skills into his build, carriers as fighter platforms become useless late in the game.

This is unlike last release when unskilled Drovers with Sparks could solo an Ordos with Radiants (while skilled one could solo several).

P.S.  Carrier skills have those annoying small limits that get interference from warships that happen to have bays, like Tempest and Odyssey.  And that converted fighter bay hullmod only works for those bays with built-in wings, like Shepherd.  (Tempest does not have OP to spare for that hullmod.)  This is like civilians with Militarized Subsystems for +1 burn interfering with L1R.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 07:39:43 AM by Megas »
Logged

Rayneth

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2021, 07:39:21 AM »

I've tried some carrier with a modded game (Mayasuran Navy and Detailed Combat results) and tried out some of their Battlecarriers, the other mod letting me see how effective some of the LPCs are doing.

They tend to do alright. I usually just field Broadswords now after trying out the various other LPC, severely disappointed in the [REDACTED] interceptors especially. The Broadswords get reduced to just 1/2 a Light machine gun after awhile due to their absolutely pathetic Flux dissipation stats, but their flares and the sheer durability per OP you're paying for makes up for it.

They oddly still do about as much damage as Gladius and Thunders.

Still, they are more a compliment to the guns of my Battlecarriers than anything else. I can't ever seem to get the bombers to do any work, they just get shot to pieces unless it's against fleets I was going to bulldoze through anyway.
Logged

Retry

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 420
    • View Profile
Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2021, 09:06:32 AM »

Point Defence also applies to fighters and not just to the carrier ship,
No, it doesn't.  The Point Defense skill effects apply exclusively to the parent carrier, the fighter craft don't receive the benefits.
(Hullmod IPDAI does the same, just to cover all the bases)

If a skill or hullmod does not explicitly say their effects apply to their fighter craft, it does not.
Logged

Arcagnello

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1011
  • Arguably Heretical, Definetly Insane
    • View Profile
Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2021, 09:43:47 AM »

I strongly disagree on carriers of any type bring useless in mid to endgame. They can be incredibly potent but the amount of effort required to reduce or even negate their drawbacks has sharply increased with the 0.95 changes:


So which is it? Do you strongly disagree carriers of any type bring useless or do they take a lot of effort to not have drawbacks?

If something is arguably all drawbacks in most cases you can't "strongly" say they aren't useless :P
You cant just say "THEY ARENT USLESS" and then say carrier groups are not seen as a viable endgame option
Hoping they wont be useless in future patches (as you have done); I really hope Alex is going to imitate them just a little bit in the future., isn't related to the current game state is it now?

It's..uh..both? Carriers can indeed falter from enemy pressure without integrated hullmods, commander skills and good officers on them but they can, at the same time, be incredibly strong and viable in endgame when said factors are added in and help them get over their limitations.

Carriers are not "all drawback".
They're essentially force projection across the battlefield in the form of either fighters immobilizing the enemy and distracting (or just being a wall of infinite HP that also does a lot of hard flux damage like Broadswords) or various bomber combinations providing pinpoint damage to the closest enemy until it dies, unable to do anything in return.

I'm running a low tech only campaign and I've now finally become able to take on [Redacted] forces with a mainly battlecarrier fleet supported by oversized fighter jets frigades with officers. The enemy is unable to advance due to Broadsword spam with enchanced damage, speed and around 60% better fighter replacement rate while it is, at the same time, getting mauled by a combination of Hurricane Mirvs, Perdition wings spamming Hammer Torpedoes or backstabbed by highly mobile frigades sporting one Assault Chaingun and a Heavy machinegun.

You can do this a lot better with both vanilla midline and vanilla high tech ships. Especially if you use a combination os Longbow/Trident bombers coming out of Herons/Astrals, Hyperions and Odisseys.

Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]

Expended Deck Crew alone is not enough, which means player must get Leadership 3, and maybe Reliability Engineering.  If player cannot fit carrier skills into his build, carriers as fighter platforms become useless late in the game.

This is unlike last release when unskilled Drovers with Sparks could solo an Ordos with Radiants (while skilled one could solo several).

P.S.  Carrier skills have those annoying small limits that get interference from warships that happen to have bays, like Tempest and Odyssey.  And that converted fighter bay hullmod only works for those bays with built-in wings, like Shepherd.  (Tempest does not have OP to spare for that hullmod.)  This is like civilians with Militarized Subsystems for +1 burn interfering with L1R.

I find that getting all the things to boost fighter damage, speed and refit/replenishment times is more or less mandatory now to keep said carriers effective throughout hard fought battles. You need all the things in case you're going to fight an enemy that's going to push them to their limits.

And yes. Using Tempests or any other ship using fighter wings that's not a dedicated carrier/battlecarrier is something to avoid. There are frigade options like (Scarab or Monitor) that are as much if not more useful in a carrier heavy fleet than the Tempest.

I've tried some carrier with a modded game (Mayasuran Navy and Detailed Combat results) and tried out some of their Battlecarriers, the other mod letting me see how effective some of the LPCs are doing.

They tend to do alright. I usually just field Broadswords now after trying out the various other LPC, severely disappointed in the [REDACTED] interceptors especially. The Broadswords get reduced to just 1/2 a Light machine gun after awhile due to their absolutely pathetic Flux dissipation stats, but their flares and the sheer durability per OP you're paying for makes up for it.

They oddly still do about as much damage as Gladius and Thunders.

Still, they are more a compliment to the guns of my Battlecarriers than anything else. I can't ever seem to get the bombers to do any work, they just get shot to pieces unless it's against fleets I was going to bulldoze through anyway.

Yes [Redacted] and automated fighter LPCs in general are quite disappointing, even with officers and carrier skills. I know since I've tried. Spark would be a good point defence and close range alternative to the Xyphos support wing if it did not suicide into the enemy so easily. Lux is alright but it's got a lot less utility than the trusted Broadword as it both does less DPS per fighter wing, only deals energy damage and even has less total HP per wing.

I suggest you to only use bombers on carriers that either get close to the enemy (Mora, Legion) or ones that have special abilities making them more effective (Heron, Astral) to maximise their effectiveness and justify their usually higher OP cost. Having an officer on said carriers that also has Elite Strike Commander, Elite Point Defence or both also goes a very long way into making bombers effective.

With that out of the way, I find bombers like the Dagger, Longbow, Trident, Perdition and Khopesh to be the most useful and flexible across most bomber-focused carriers without extensive specializations of the latter.

Point Defence also applies to fighters and not just to the carrier ship,
No, it doesn't.  The Point Defense skill effects apply exclusively to the parent carrier, the fighter craft don't receive the benefits.
(Hullmod IPDAI does the same, just to cover all the bases)

If a skill or hullmod does not explicitly say their effects apply to their fighter craft, it does not.

Doesen't the Point Defence explicitly state that it also applies to fighter LPCs tough? Wait let me just get a screenshot of the skill...


Logged
Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.
The therapist removed my F5 key.

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7174
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2021, 10:15:38 AM »

In my experience carriers work well against every enemy except Omega's - I've used them up until the late game vs multi Radiant Ordo's just fine. They are like most other ships: if you want them to perform well in endgame they need an officer (for reliability engineering and one or both fighter skills) and like all other ships they receive a large bonus from S mods. Omegas just have the nasty feature of spawning EMP arcs all the time, which fighters can't handle.

For skills: Boosted CR is unfortunately better than carrier group, simply because it provides other bonuses to the fighters (speed, damage, defense, autoaim accuracy). It also helps all the other ships in the fleet. I think Carrier Group is a fine skill and its scaling isn't much of a problem for 240DP mixed fleets - but Crew Training is just stronger. EW vs Fighter Uplink is a closer call. EW is generally a better skill, but Fighter Uplink is extremely good too (better than Carrier Group for most battles). This is especially true for fleets where every ship has ECCM for missiles (and every ship using decent missiles should have ECCM). For non-missile fleets the range penalty is more severe and I think its still worth investing in winning the ECM war.

For the skills: for a bomber carrier, reliability engineering and strike commander. For an interceptor/heavy fighter carrier: reliability engineering and maybe point defense but I honestly don't think its worth it. Fighters go after other fighters and missiles only incidentally so its mostly a wasted skill: interceptors are their for killing frigates, heavy fighters are for killing destroyers and raising shield flux for other things to get in a killing blow. Something like a low level merc would work, but its also nice to put on the missile skill and a few defensive ones as well to keep the carrier alive if things go wrong.
Logged

NoMercyForLudds_

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2021, 10:56:35 AM »

Carriers can have their uses - mostly because they aren't meant for the front line and don't have to have deep flux reserves. They can take potshots with the longest-range gun you can fit on them, provide anti-fighter cover to other ships (I often skip on point defence for some ships, and they'd need to run for cover once swarmed by enemy fighters), provide some fleet-wise bonus (ECM, ECCM etc), or pressure enemies using missiles.

For some reason, I also find 2 Herons to be more useful than one Astral.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 02:01:32 PM by NoMercyForLudds_ »
Logged

prav

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 382
    • View Profile
Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2021, 01:21:28 PM »

I get considerably more performance out of my Legion XIV's two Hurricanes than I do out of its four fighter wings. Is this where the Legion XIV is supposed to get most of its power?
Logged

Retry

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 420
    • View Profile
Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2021, 01:55:30 PM »

Quote
Doesen't the Point Defence explicitly state that it also applies to fighter LPCs tough? Wait let me just get a screenshot of the skill...
Well, damn.  I guess it does.  That'd my bad.

Kinda unintuitive.  Why in the world would a hullmod intended for point defense actually be the the most powerful fighter v fighter skill in the game?
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12118
    • View Profile
Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2021, 02:51:09 PM »

I get considerably more performance out of my Legion XIV's two Hurricanes than I do out of its four fighter wings. Is this where the Legion XIV is supposed to get most of its power?
The main reason to use Legion XIV over standard Legion is missile power, namely large dumb-fire missile power.

I treat Legion XIV in this release as a primary missileship that has bays it does not need.  Slap mining pods as fighters because they are free meat shields, and focus mostly on Hammers or Reapers because it is one of the few ships that can use those dumb-fire large missiles effectively.  Slap some kinetics in the non-missile mounts, and spray some Hammers.
Logged

Pappus

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
Re: Carriers mid-late game
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2021, 03:09:28 PM »

If the AI wouldn't send them head-in first into the thickest blob of ships it can find, then maybe they would be better.

The fighters simply deploy way too early for starters hitting each others mainline before anything even happened. On the flanks it would be more reasonable.

Fighters legitimately being kamikazes that dont return unless they die while on engagement also raises some sanity questions.

In general they die way too much to stray fire, which has to be, because the AI ships aren't "smartly" built.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3