Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Poll

Which version's skill system do you like more

0.91
- 109 (52.2%)
0.95
- 100 (47.8%)

Total Members Voted: 209

Voting closed: June 02, 2021, 10:12:39 PM


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 8

Author Topic: Simple poll: Do you like the old skill system or new skill system more  (Read 10938 times)

Vanshilar

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 602
    • View Profile

I think people sometimes forget that the purpose isn't necessarily to give the player what they want per se (in which case we should just start at max level with all ships and weapons with all shipsystems and unlimited HP) but to have the player confront interesting choices and have to make meaningful tradeoffs. A lot of the complaints I see basically boil down to "but I can't get everything I want" which is entirely the point (and for those people who really think it's too limiting, you can just edit settings.json to give yourself as many levels and hence as many skill points as you want).

The new skill system lets the player max/min more, but they have to give up more to do so. Want to have a Radiant in your fleet? Sure, but you'll have to give up essentially 10-15 OP on all of your ships (i.e. what you save with a 3rd s-mod) to do so. So you really have to think about if you want a single powerful ship or buffing all other ships.

Similarly, the DP maxes on some of the skills prevent them from being too powerful, and rewards having an effective fleet instead of simply spamming Paragons. So again it gives the player a meaningful choice to consider.

The new system certainly needs some tweaking (for example I'm not a fan of a choice between both frigate-buffing skills) but it gives the player more meaningful choices and potentially more powerful fleets if constructed properly.
Logged

Ramiel

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
    • View Profile

What's the point of limiting players, if it takes away the fun?
Logged

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
    • View Profile

I think people sometimes forget that the purpose isn't necessarily to give the player what they want per se (in which case we should just start at max level with all ships and weapons with all shipsystems and unlimited HP) but to have the player confront interesting choices and have to make meaningful tradeoffs. A lot of the complaints I see basically boil down to "but I can't get everything I want" which is entirely the point (and for those people who really think it's too limiting, you can just edit settings.json to give yourself as many levels and hence as many skill points as you want).

The new skill system lets the player max/min more, but they have to give up more to do so. Want to have a Radiant in your fleet? Sure, but you'll have to give up essentially 10-15 OP on all of your ships (i.e. what you save with a 3rd s-mod) to do so. So you really have to think about if you want a single powerful ship or buffing all other ships.

Similarly, the DP maxes on some of the skills prevent them from being too powerful, and rewards having an effective fleet instead of simply spamming Paragons. So again it gives the player a meaningful choice to consider.

The new system certainly needs some tweaking (for example I'm not a fan of a choice between both frigate-buffing skills) but it gives the player more meaningful choices and potentially more powerful fleets if constructed properly.
You’re also missing some points:
It’s not about getting everything I want but I’m forced to pick things I don’t want to get what I want. The feel of wasted skill points is where all the complaints come from. In both versions of the skill system a pick is always at an opportunity cost of picking another and it has never changed.
Editing setting file is essentially claiming the vanilla balance is no good, do I need to say more?

Logged


Since all my mods have poor reputation, I deem my efforts unworthy thus no more updates will be made.

Inhilicon

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • I like when the ship
    • View Profile

It's only a small example comparison, but in the old system I could have Technology's Sensors and Navigation skills both. Now I cannot.

And these skills that eventually hit a limit, after which they do nothing? I don't like that. And why do not all skills have elite effects? Combat gets a lot of favoritism, I swear.
Logged

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4143
    • View Profile

And these skills that eventually hit a limit, after which they do nothing?
So that the optimal use of any fleetwide skill isn't to spam 20 Paragons.

I don't like that. And why do not all skills have elite effects? Combat gets a lot of favoritism, I swear.
Because, for example, when you get Special Modifications, you get 10-20 new opportunities to spend story points on ships. When you get Systems Expertise, you have no new incentive to spend story points on anything, so as a participation award story point sink, you get the elite upgrade.
You can also think of it this way: combat skills cost 1 1/4th of a skill point to fully unlock.

The feel of wasted skill points is where all the complaints come from.
There were wasted points in 0.9.1, too, though it typically had some good stuff at the level 3 (though it's not guaranteed, as with Defensive Systems 3 or Helmsmanship 3). Current system would feel better, if top skills were strong enough to guarantee their price without taking previous skills into much consideration.

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
    • View Profile

It’s a different story when you need to waste 4 out of 15 (wrapping) comparing to 2 out of 30.
Logged


Since all my mods have poor reputation, I deem my efforts unworthy thus no more updates will be made.

Scorpixel

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
    • View Profile

The new version seem to be more clement toward players who'd rather pilot themselves rather than take full fleet and logistic skills.
However it's less because personal skills were buffed and more because non-personal ones were severely hampered by the "get half of it and loop for the other half" on top of diminishing returns on some and the trap of derelict+fieldrepair.

As someone who doesn't pilot, 0.9.1 but i do understand the point of those who prefer 0.95, and will too be in favour of it when skills gets some balancing to make the system flexible without leaving an aftertaste of doing concessions rather than specialisation.
Logged

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
    • View Profile

The new version seem to be more clement toward players who'd rather pilot themselves rather than take full fleet and logistic skills.
However it's less because personal skills were buffed and more because non-personal ones were severely hampered by the "get half of it and loop for the other half" on top of diminishing returns on some and the trap of derelict+fieldrepair.

As someone who doesn't pilot, 0.9.1 but i do understand the point of those who prefer 0.95, and will too be in favour of it when skills gets some balancing to make the system flexible without leaving an aftertaste of doing concessions rather than specialisation.
Adding a side note, combat tree is pretty no-brain picks. You either need one or the other, with the only exception of tier 5 that both may be useful. But noone is going to pay 4 points of skill tax just to wrap around to get both. Every other tree you’re making choices between similar skills that serve similar functions to some extent that it’s hardly counting as meaningful choices, if the results are similar.
Logged


Since all my mods have poor reputation, I deem my efforts unworthy thus no more updates will be made.

Draba

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 732
    • View Profile

Prefer the new one, but it does have a "crew traning" problem. I'd take that one over 5 from the entire industry tree any day of the week.
Same for tech 4-5 and either officer skills. Not much leeway after the obvious picks are done.
Logged

Vanshilar

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 602
    • View Profile

The feel of wasted skill points is where all the complaints come from.

In which case under the old skill system you had to burn 12 of your 40 points just to unlock tier 3 of each tree. That's almost 1/3 of your points going into exactly zero benefit except to unlock skills. The old system was also similarly tiered, with skills locked behind other skills which may or may not be useful, just 3 instead of 5.
Logged

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
    • View Profile

The feel of wasted skill points is where all the complaints come from.

In which case under the old skill system you had to burn 12 of your 40 points just to unlock tier 3 of each tree. That's almost 1/3 of your points going into exactly zero benefit except to unlock skills. The old system was also similarly tiered, with skills locked behind other skills which may or may not be useful, just 3 instead of 5.
However all the skills are themed properly. When you get industry aptitude you get industry skills, hands down no dispute. It’s not barring all colony skills at tier 5 and force players to pay 80% of skill points as taxes. Not to mention you’re making a false assumption of people getting all aptitudes - which is often not the case.

Like seriously, you can’t even get a tier 5 from each tree because you only have 15 points.
It’s far worse than previous iteration when you can actually get top skills from every tree.
I’m not seeing paying 80% tax better than 30%.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 02:24:35 PM by Sutopia »
Logged


Since all my mods have poor reputation, I deem my efforts unworthy thus no more updates will be made.

Ad Astra

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 263
  • Are Reapers strawberry flavored?
    • View Profile

In all due honesty I had to pick 0.91 because it didn't have skills directly acting against each other in the same tree (Industry T4) and because it would have been easier to fix the power differences between trees then than now.

Still if I were to explain what's wrong with the skill tree in few words it would be that the structure in which its configured is terribly restrictive to skill design and makes it impossible to balance and organize in any satisfactory way.
Make a tree with branches, create a clear Tier power hierarchy, forget about symmetry, and you have a win.
Logged
You can park your spaceship anywhere you want if you get along with pirates

JadedTarget

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile

I'm going to simplify my preference and critique by saying that I prefer Quality Captains: Skill Lanes + A New Level Of Confidence: 20 over either vanilla system.
Logged

YAZF

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
    • View Profile

New system 100%. Could still be improved, sure, but definitely a step in the right direction.

1. Stronger, fewer skills > weaker, more numerous skills. The old system suffered from far too many small incremental upgrades. While over time they could make a very strong character, any individual level rarely felt impactful unless you hit one of the few major upgrades like transverse jumping. Levels in 0.95 give you more per level overall and that feels good.
2.  No dead levels. In the old system you'd usually have ~10 levels per playthrough where you just spent your skill points on raising aptitude. Now, there are some levels that might feel a little worse than others still, but you still always get SOMETHING.
3. More choice isn't always better. By limiting each level to a choice between 8 available skills, it helps players (especially new players) avoid getting overwhelmed with analysis paralysis.
4. (Most subjective opinion)  I LIKE the fact you can't get everything you might want. In 0.91 being able to get whatever you wanted with few restrictions made each playthrough feel so incredibly same-y. Despite all the choices I had available I always found myself falling into the same general builds by level 50. Now, fewer choices force more player consideration and planning, which I find quite fun. And since each skill is fairly impactful, it helps the player feel good about their choice afterward, even if it was a hard choice to make.
Logged
Dear Alex,
There should be a battlestation/star fortress fight in the main menu mission mode.  :)

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
    • View Profile

New system 100%. Could still be improved, sure, but definitely a step in the right direction.

1. Stronger, fewer skills > weaker, more numerous skills. The old system suffered from far too many small incremental upgrades. While over time they could make a very strong character, any individual level rarely felt impactful unless you hit one of the few major upgrades like transverse jumping. Levels in 0.95 give you more per level overall and that feels good.
2.  No dead levels. In the old system you'd usually have ~10 levels per playthrough where you just spent your skill points on raising aptitude. Now, there are some levels that might feel a little worse than others still, but you still always get SOMETHING.
3. More choice isn't always better. By limiting each level to a choice between 8 available skills, it helps players (especially new players) avoid getting overwhelmed with analysis paralysis.
4. (Most subjective opinion)  I LIKE the fact you can't get everything you might want. In 0.91 being able to get whatever you wanted with few restrictions made each playthrough feel so incredibly same-y. Despite all the choices I had available I always found myself falling into the same general builds by level 50. Now, fewer choices force more player consideration and planning, which I find quite fun. And since each skill is fairly impactful, it helps the player feel good about their choice afterward, even if it was a hard choice to make.
Re:2. I play a monitor thus is forced to waste 3 points completely useless to get a better shield. Technology tier 2 is also a waste.

Re:3. has been discussed many times and these type of nonsense arguments still pops everywhere.
You can't get derelict contingent without investing 3 other dead skills in. If I'm actually choosing from 8 skills all the time there is no chance I'd ever get to DC.
It's a completely false assumption due to limited skill points, player HAD to plan ahead how they want their skill points distributed.
More often than not players are in one of the two situations:
1. Still staring at 40 skills and struggling to put in 15
2. Looking at 3 options from their planned picks and decide picking which first
You're not playing a deck building game where only limited options are available and by random that makes you really need to value between given options. This is a dang RPG where all the build paths are known.

Re:4. Vanilla level cap is at 40 and was offering equally tough decisions. Level 50 has to be modded (cheating) and the same would apply to current system if you give yourself something like 25 total skill points. The worse skills will be left unpicked and you'll be able to get "everything", which makes playthroughs still feeling same-ish.


Edit:
I would argue that stronger skills feels way worse than weaker skills. If I don't want EVERYTHING in such bundle I feel I'm wasting skill points. Unlike the old system, I'm paying for what I get most of the time with a few exception of skill level 3 being very good. The skills are mostly in line and synergizes for all three levels so it's seldom wasted point.

I would also argue that the time between upgrades has become longer than previous version, making much longer downtime of boringness between excitement for power surges - which usually doesn't last long before you take it as granted; Not to mention taking dead skills for the later feels way worse after longer waiting time.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 10:54:04 PM by Sutopia »
Logged


Since all my mods have poor reputation, I deem my efforts unworthy thus no more updates will be made.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 8