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Author Topic: Problem with deployment points?  (Read 7479 times)

TotenKopf

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Problem with deployment points?
« on: May 03, 2021, 03:45:35 AM »

I either don't fully understand how deployment points are divided up between fleets, or I have encountered an issue.

My combat fleet outnumbers this sub-ordo 431 to 165, yet I only get 120 deployment points? Why do they get the opportunity to launch up to 50% more points worth of ships? My understanding is that I should get 18P DP in this scenario.

I have battle size set to 300 (runs perfectly on my laptop with integrated graphics - I love this game) btw. Can anyone tell me if this is intended and why?
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SCC

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Re: Problem with deployment points?
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2021, 04:03:40 AM »

Deployment points are distributed based on officer count and their levels, not on ships.

AcaMetis

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Re: Problem with deployment points?
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2021, 04:03:57 AM »

Those calculations got changed in 0.9.5. If you hover over the deployment points counter in a combat's tactical (strategic?) view you'll get the game's explanation, but the tl;dr is that which side gets to deploy more ships is now determined by officers, not fleet size. Controlling battlefield objectives also increases your DP deployment limit.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Problem with deployment points?
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2021, 04:11:02 AM »

Hello! Welcome to the forum by the way :)

The Deployment Point balance between fleets is currently only marginally affected by the relative fleet sizes, while the relative number and quality of officers is what impacts it the most, up the the point when you're always going to be stuck at 40% of total battle deployment size (which is 120 with default battle size) if the enemy fleet you're facing has better officers and/or in greater number.

Remnant Ordos have the tendency to have an AI core acting as officer on almost every ship. Say you're fighting a reasonably minute Remnant Ordo made of 1 Alpha Core Radiant, 4 Beta core Brilliants, Scintillas and Fulgents and then around 5 Gamma Core Lumens and Glimmers.

This amounts to an overall 8+6+6+6+6+4+4+4+4+4=52 total officer levels. By comparison, the maximum amount the player can get worth of officer levels is 40 (5*8) without investing in Leadership skills.

There are four main ways to have as many Deployment Points at the enemy. You can apply all 4 of them at the same time.

The first one is to have enough fast ships to comfortably capture buoys on the battlefield (since each one raises your max DP by 20, up to 60% of the total battle value).

The second one is to invest in one, maybe even both level 4 leadership skills which increase both maximum officers and maximum officer level.

The third one is to recruit the special Officers that require a story point. The initial recruitment and the first renewal of the contract after one cycle has passed have a 100% exp return, essentially making them free if you only keep them for two cycles.

The fourth one is to have the level 5 Automated Ships Technology Skill which allows to field Explorarium/Remnant ships and give them AI cores to act as their officer. Their presence counts towards the total officer number/level. Fielding the most AI officers would involve getting the cheapest automated Ship possible, fully integrate a Gamma core on it and then just spam copies of it until the ships stay above 41% Combat Readiness. I suggest deploying Glimmer Drone Frigades with an integrated Gamma core, Safety Overrides (plus some integrated hullmods if you want to)  since they strike quite a good balance between combat effectiveness and AI officer spam.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 04:17:24 AM by Arcagnello »
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TotenKopf

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Re: Problem with deployment points?
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2021, 04:23:24 AM »

Aha! Thank you all so much! I knew I must have been missing something. I guess holding out for aggressive officers was a mistake.

Well, time to go load up on peeps.

Follow-up question: with 10 officers and heavily out numbering the enemy fleet, can I expect a 60/40split? Or will it be closer to 50/50? Those ordos are tough and I haven't found any capital blueprints after exploring 3/4 of the map.

Edit: not 10 officers but equal officers... I'm trying to determine the best fleet size.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 04:25:30 AM by TotenKopf »
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Arcagnello

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Re: Problem with deployment points?
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2021, 04:55:51 AM »

Aha! Thank you all so much! I knew I must have been missing something. I guess holding out for aggressive officers was a mistake.

Well, time to go load up on peeps.

Follow-up question: with 10 officers and heavily out numbering the enemy fleet, can I expect a 60/40split? Or will it be closer to 50/50? Those ordos are tough and I haven't found any capital blueprints after exploring 3/4 of the map.

Edit: not 10 officers but equal officers... I'm trying to determine the best fleet size.

The best "fleet size" is the one allowing you to deploy most, if not all your Officered ships and the ship with your guy as an officer all at once.

Say you got 10 officers plus yourself and you have not become a pantsy left the Battle size to the default 300.

This means that you should have a fleet totaling 11 combat ships that goes a bit above the 180 Deployment Point mark and that allows you to reasonably customize your deployment force for the engagement every time.

As an example, I'm currently playing a campaign with the standard battle size and with a rather extreme low tech focus, where I'm not allowed to use anything that is not low tech or was a modification that originally was notlow tech (I.E. XIV Onslaught and XIV Legion are allowed, but not XIV Falcon or XIV Eagle since they come from Midline ships).

I've got 10 points in Leadership (meaning I get both Officer related skills) and 5 points into Technology allowing me to invest into 3 integrated hullmods on every combat ship I have, plus an additional two story points for every officer to have two Elite Combat skills while piloting them.

I've got 5, 40 Deployment Points Capital ships and 6, 10 Deployment Points Frigades (they're a low tech, bootleg superfrigade called Venom-X from the Underworld mod) Totaling up to 260 deployment points.

I can deploy 4 capitals and 2 frigades or 3 capitals and 6 frigades in the order I want depending on the situation. It's quite nice and it allows me to compress my fleet's fighting power enough to use all my officers and skills in most battles.

It is even better if you pick Automated ships: you can now have, for example, 8 Overridden Glimmers, 3 Odissey Battlecruisers, 4 Overridden Hyperion Superfrigades and 2 Harbingers, all with officers and three integrated hullmods each if you picked 5 skills in leadership and 10 in Technology.

The fleet is 40+135+60+40=275 fleet points in total and it allows for A LOT more combinations than my current one, all the while fielding much stronger ships with more or less 60% more officer levels and with no drawback since you only have 8 Human controlled ships and all of them have officers, plus the spare Hyperion that's got your character as officer.
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TotenKopf

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Re: Problem with deployment points?
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2021, 06:26:44 AM »

This is great info, thanks. You practically wrote a sticky worthy deployment guide. I might roll another character to try and get better exploration luck and a better colony setup. Colonies are new to me and I bungled mine up pretty good... I haven't played starsector for years.

Cheers!
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Scorpixel

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Re: Problem with deployment points?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2021, 07:22:18 AM »

Nothing to do with the subject but
Say you got 10 officers plus yourself and you have not become a pantsy left the Battle size to the default 300.
I'll have you know my self-esteem has been deeply hurt as i play on 500, and will now proceed to send you a strongly worded letter about how you're wrong and smell bad.

More seriously, what's so bad about increased battle size? Other than frying a potato-pc.
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robepriority

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Re: Problem with deployment points?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2021, 08:45:10 AM »

I think increased battle size doesn't scale the campaign fleets, so generally the bruteforce method applies more.

Although once you get into modded campaigns the enemy fleets also begin blooming past the 300DP stuff too.

Thaago

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Re: Problem with deployment points?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2021, 08:54:18 AM »

In general smaller battle size is a bit easier, as the player ship has fewer enemies to deal with at any given time. It also means fights take longer though, as the enemies are going to be deploying more reinforcements.
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Amoebka

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Re: Problem with deployment points?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2021, 09:11:31 AM »

Nah, it really depends on fleet comps. Some strategies benefit from low/high battlesize more. If you are running a SO fleet against Ordos, higher size benefits you more than the enemy. Spamming is also easier on higher sizes. Low size also makes logistics riskier - you are fielding smaller ships on average, so the chance of someone blowing up randomly increases greatly.

And also, boss battles don't scale at all, so any increase in battle size is a huge drop in their difficulty.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Problem with deployment points?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2021, 09:51:11 AM »

This is great info, thanks. You practically wrote a sticky worthy deployment guide. I might roll another character to try and get better exploration luck and a better colony setup. Colonies are new to me and I bungled mine up pretty good... I haven't played starsector for years.

Cheers!

Oh, thanks  :)

I'm afraid my type of writing is too much of a s-word post meme extravaganza to be worth being called a guide, not to mention I tend to get off topic every single, Ludd forsaken time. That said I'm glad it was helpful to you!

Colonies in 0.95 have benerally become indipendent from AI core spam to be profitable at all, but quite a number of nuances have been introduced aswell. I usually follow these 4 steps to set up profitable colonies, to hopefully keep it short:

1)Find a system with a good Class V planet (preferably with both mining and farming, altough be careful of it also having rare ore as that will prevent you from installing the Dominion relic that improves farming) a barren world with the least amount of hazard possible (bonus points if it has the "low gravity" bonus/malus) and another world with the "Extreme Heat" malus.

2)Colonize the class V one first and live off of it thanks to mining/farming, give it Commerce as a third industry slot and then something that works well with habitable planets, like Light Industry

3)Colonize the "Extreme Heat" planet. Set it up with an industry first (they usually are good for mining) and then make it your main military planet with a Military HQ. Third industry is Commerce and fourth is up to you, really. We want the Military HQ here because there's a relic improving fleet size by 100%

4)Colonize the barren planet and set it up to be the one that holds your Heavy Industry/Orbital Works, Fuel production and Refining. We need a barren world because all three of these industries either have an item adding the "pollution" malus to habitable planets or that can't be installd on planets with an atmosphere in the first place.

Here's some examples from my current campaign showing my three planets that loosely followed the above steps. As you can see the first two earn disgusting amounts of money while the third more or less is the one allowing them to have 4 industry slots, and is therefore on the red (that said it still has Hazard pay). There's some added industries and building from the Industrial Evolution Mod, but they can be perfectly reproduced without them.

Class V starter colony, have not found the relic for Commerce yet
Spoiler
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Class I Money making colony, have not found the relic for commerce yet
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Class IV Guard Dog Extreme Heat colony, have not found either the relic for commerce or the one for the Military base  :P
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Ludd forgive me. I've went off topic again.

Nothing to do with the subject but
Say you got 10 officers plus yourself and you have not become a pantsy left the Battle size to the default 300.
I'll have you know my self-esteem has been deeply hurt as i play on 500, and will now proceed to send you a strongly worded letter about how you're wrong and smell bad.

More seriously, what's so bad about increased battle size? Other than frying a potato-pc.

I personally find that straying above the Battle size setting the game gives you both makes the entire experience a whole lot easier but also needlessly unfair at times.

It makes the game easier as the most difficult battles are all story related aside from multiple [Redacted], which means they're intended to be fought at 240 maximum Deployment points, 180-120 if you're manly like me, shave with a chainsaw and love games that want to make you suffer.

It makes the game needlessly unfair because most character skills have a treshold after which they provide less end less bonus, meaning your fleet power is going to be diluted across a lot of Deployment Points instead of concentrated. Good if you're fighting Pirates, bad if you're fighting multiple [Redacted] fielding a plethora of level 8, 6 and 4 officers  with all their skills elite, some of them driving game imbalance incarnate a very fun ship you're going to love.

It also does, as Amoebka said (interesting name by the way, where does it come from?  :)) heavily shift the fleet composition. While low maximum deployment values allow for a plethora of effective strategies, massively increasing it makes all fleets gravitate towards capital ship spam with officers ontop of them, because how else would you even be able to have everything you deploy have an Officer otherwise?

That said, I'm just a vaguely elitist Safety Overrides addict Faithful Luddite, so take these opinions with a whole metric ton of Volturian Salt.


Edited Addendum

Dear Luddites and Luddettes, do you think adding a hidden mechanic making story battles scale with Max deployment size would be too sadistic? Should I write it into the Mod Ideas instead?

Like I don't know...(spoilers ahead)
Spoiler
1) An additional Tesseract every time the player's max deployment size goes 120 above the normal FP limit, meaning 120 max deployment size is just one Dorito, 121-240 is two Doritos, 241-360 is three Doritos et cetera
2)I'm not sure how the Ziggurat fight could scale. Maybe giving the ship a damage multipliers across all weapons it has, including motes? Would make for a fun, entertaining lootbox CBT battle experience  ::)
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« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 11:22:08 AM by Arcagnello »
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WeiTuLo

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Re: Problem with deployment points?
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2021, 09:57:51 AM »

Consider having some fast frigates (phase ships are ridiculously fast for this) capture the two points near you for more deployment points. Usually one is a comm point and the other is nav/sensor jammer.  You can get up to 50% more deployment points like this.

Say battle size is 200, you can do 80. If you capture a comm relay and another point, you can likely deploy 120 at this point. The increases are a bit less at large battle sizes.
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