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Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

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Author Topic: A Leadership Capstone Idea  (Read 3907 times)

intrinsic_parity

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A Leadership Capstone Idea
« on: May 02, 2021, 10:55:13 PM »

There's been quite a bit of discussion about how much stronger frigates have become in the new update, and a significant part of that is the power of wolfpack tactics. Rather than just nerfing it, I think it should become a capstone/tier 5 skill. I think it would need to be a bit stronger to really fit though. I would do one or more of: extending some bonuses to unofficered frigates, and giving some reduced bonuses to destroyers. In addition, I think an interesting opposite skill would be something to buff capitals/crusiers so that there is a choice of which size ships you want to buff, and there is a skill that benefits you no matter what ships you use. Something like bonus range/maneuverability/speed on officered capital ships and cruisers would be interesting I think.

What other ideas do you all have for leadership capstones?
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TaLaR

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Re: A Leadership Capstone Idea
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2021, 12:51:24 AM »

Then you make Leadership mandatory, just as Tech already is. Combat tree is already pretty much propped by phase super ships alone. While DC is the only strong argument for Industry.

Something like bonus range/maneuverability/speed on officered capital ships and cruisers would be interesting I think.

Right, let's cement uselessness of DEs as the only class to enjoy no bonuses (but suffer all the penalties).

and giving some reduced bonuses to destroyers.

...missed this. Anyway I think DEs are already the weakest size class, and whatever changes shouldn't move further into same direction.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 01:04:54 AM by TaLaR »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: A Leadership Capstone Idea
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2021, 01:05:22 AM »

Then you make Leadership mandatory, just as Tech already is. Combat tree is already pretty much propped by phase super ships alone. While DC is the only strong argument for Industry.
Nothing is mandatory if all the trees have similarly good tier 5s. Tech is only problematic because the other tier 5s are weaker. I'd prefer adding good tier 5s to the other trees than nerfing the good tech skills and making everything bland and mediocre. I see many people who already don't take wolfpack tactics in its current state at tier 2, so I don't think it would be so strong as to be mandatory at tier 5, even if some additional bonuses were added (maybe just pure PPT for unofficered frigates, and extend half bonuses to officered destroyers). If that is too strong, then nerf it slightly. I definitely don't think it's inherently impossible to balance as a solid tier 5 skill... 

Something like bonus range/maneuverability/speed on officered capital ships and cruisers would be interesting I think.
Right, let's cement uselessness of DEs as the only class to enjoy no bonuses (but suffer all the penalties).
I suggested extending some bonuses to destroyers, so I don't see how this true.
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SCC

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Re: A Leadership Capstone Idea
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2021, 01:24:00 AM »

Then you make Leadership mandatory, just as Tech already is.
I wish all the trees were just as mandatory as technology.

Lucky33

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Re: A Leadership Capstone Idea
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2021, 03:21:59 AM »

Yeah, nice idea. As of right now some inexperienced players can fall into the trap and actually spend some skill points on the green line but moving anything even slightly useful to the last position will save them from making such a blatant mistake.
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SonnaBanana

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Re: A Leadership Capstone Idea
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2021, 05:16:34 AM »

What other ideas do you all have for leadership capstones?
Leadership capstone doubles XP gain

Combat capstone is a cruiser and capital ship skill
Technology capstone lets you find more rare stuff like AI Cores and Planetary items while salvaging and exploring
Industry capstones reduces demand by one on all colonies with an admin

Capstone skills are automatically and only given when all the skills in an aptitude are purchased.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 05:21:33 AM by SonnaBanana »
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Megas

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Re: A Leadership Capstone Idea
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2021, 05:23:00 AM »

For Leadership 5 capstone, if all else is equal, the officer skills because they are permanent, and I want the raider skill (Ground Operations) when I raid for all of their rare items (because the stations become meatgrinders - up to about a thousand marines per raid, when raiding for rare items) without locking my points permanently in officers.  Also, unless player is solo-ing or chain-flagship with super phase ships, more or better officers are very good.

I like Wolfpack Tactics is early because player is stuck with frigates early, and bounties may upgrade faster than the player can, just like last release.  If player has trouble with bounties, then at least Wolfpack Tactics is but a respec away (without sacrificing every other skill).

What I do not like about Wolfpack Tactics is frigates need it for PPT alone.
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Lucky33

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Re: A Leadership Capstone Idea
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2021, 08:41:40 AM »

Officer wise right now the whole leadership aptitude has to offer some very exciting choices:

Get two more substandard officers!

Or!

Bring your officers to the same level as the whole sector!

However!

The very best officers are under tech aptitude. Who would have thought!
The second best officers are only found in the derelicts!
You can hire any number of the best that Leadership has to offer without limits or actually investing anything in the Leadership. What a twist!

Comedy. Pure comedy.
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Ad Astra

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Re: A Leadership Capstone Idea
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2021, 10:04:52 AM »

Officer wise right now the whole leadership aptitude has to offer some very exciting choices:

Get two more substandard officers!

Or!

Bring your officers to the same level as the whole sector!

However!

The very best officers are under tech aptitude. Who would have thought!
The second best officers are only found in the derelicts!
You can hire any number of the best that Leadership has to offer without limits or actually investing anything in the Leadership. What a twist!

Comedy. Pure comedy.

You dare talk smack about Super Officer Gacha SSS+! The nerves on this guy!
Yeah at this point I'd prefer officers get nuked out of existence really, they are causing more headaches than fun.
If they were named hero units you can find throughout the sector in every playthrough, maybe I'll be down, but as it is, meh.
The game refuses to have you play with the same rules as the enemy, and then tries to make it so that you kinda play with the same rules as the enemy. This doesn't work, either our limits apply to the NPCs too, or you go for an entirely different approach.
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Thaago

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Re: A Leadership Capstone Idea
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2021, 10:15:59 AM »

There's been quite a bit of discussion about how much stronger frigates have become in the new update, and a significant part of that is the power of wolfpack tactics. Rather than just nerfing it, I think it should become a capstone/tier 5 skill. I think it would need to be a bit stronger to really fit though. I would do one or more of: extending some bonuses to unofficered frigates, and giving some reduced bonuses to destroyers. In addition, I think an interesting opposite skill would be something to buff capitals/crusiers so that there is a choice of which size ships you want to buff, and there is a skill that benefits you no matter what ships you use. Something like bonus range/maneuverability/speed on officered capital ships and cruisers would be interesting I think.

What other ideas do you all have for leadership capstones?

Wolfpack would fit nicely as a tier 5 skill and I would welcome the bonuses being extended to destroyers. I think that destroyers are for low and midtech a strong ship class (Enforcers, Hammerheads, and Sunders are all top tier now, Medusas are pretty good too), so a reduced bonus would be fine.

I like the idea of the other skill being for larger ships, as in my opinion cruisers could really use help with the current skills. I think there's a pretty narrow range of the game where its worth having a cruiser instead of a capital (or for light cruisers a cruiser instead of a destroyer). Mainly just economic incentive, as capitals are expensive to run. Exceptions: the Fury is good as a superdestroyer cosplaying as a cruiser, the Aurora is decent playerbait, there's no capital equivalent to the Gryphon, and the Doom is changing the game difficulty to easy mode.

How about calling it "Decisive Battle Doctrine". For symmetry with wolfpack it applies to officered Cruisers, with a reduced bonus for officered capitals. As for the bonus: Wolfpack mirrors energy weapon mastery in adding more damage, the primary beneficiaries being high tech frigates. What if DBD mirrors gunnery implants? +10% range and projectile velocity, -20% weapon recoil, +10 speed (flat), half bonuses for capitals? The combo of range and speed might be too good tbh.

Yeah, nice idea. As of right now some inexperienced players can fall into the trap and actually spend some skill points on the green line but moving anything even slightly useful to the last position will save them from making such a blatant mistake.

The leadership skill offers for 3 skillpoints:
+15% damage to all ships at 120 DP, scaling to +10% damage at 240 DP
+25% speed to all ships OR +5% speed to all ships and wolfpack tactics for +20% damage, +120 PPT for officered frigates
+5% maneuverability
-5% damage taken by all defense types
-5% fighter refit time
Improved autofire accuracy
An extra deployment or extra time before malfunctions sets in for long battles

All of these benefits are to all ships and stack with other bonuses from officers or player skills. Just comparing those to combat skills, that seems like ~2 and a bit combat skills worth to every ship in the fleet, including the player ship, for 3 skillpoints (or 1 and a bit combat skills for everyone + wolfpack for officered frigates). Next is the officers skill: not exciting, but a good skill. For the 8 ships they are on, the better officers is similar to about 2/3 of T4L and T5L combined (elite skill for story point compared to free hullmod for story point about lines up for the stronger elite choices, and an extra skill overall is depending on skill nearly as good as +20% base flux.).

The problem with leadership isn't that its early stages are weak, its that it has no capstones and sucks for looping because of L1R. L1L, L2-4 are all solid skills. I sometimes wonder whether we've all been fooled by the cost of 1 dead skill and 1 colony skill and if it wouldn't be stronger to just loop leadership: Wolfpack +20% speed would be even crazier for frigate fleets, the 15% CR stacks with fighter replenishment for making carriers better, and the officer skills stack with each other too.
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Megas

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Re: A Leadership Capstone Idea
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2021, 10:49:52 AM »

You dare talk smack about Super Officer Gacha SSS+! The nerves on this guy!
Yeah at this point I'd prefer officers get nuked out of existence really, they are causing more headaches than fun.
If they were named hero units you can find throughout the sector in every playthrough, maybe I'll be down, but as it is, meh.
The game refuses to have you play with the same rules as the enemy, and then tries to make it so that you kinda play with the same rules as the enemy. This doesn't work, either our limits apply to the NPCs too, or you go for an entirely different approach.
Random non-renewable level 7s mean little if the have junk skills and/or behavior.  Alex removed looting level 6+ officers from new wrecks.

I like to see mercs nuked out of existence because it seems to be the excuse why human factions can break caps but the player cannot (easily).  Officer spam was supposed to compensate for toning down capital spam, but instead we get officer spam on top of even (slightly) more capital spam.  Also, I do not want to constantly check info boards and pay inflated salaries and story points to keep mercs.

Officers are okay as long as the AI play by the same rules, and they used to.  However, I would not mind if officers were removed entirely like releases before officers were a thing (all of the pre-0.7a releases).

Level 7+ officers should be restricted to the fleet commander, much like skilled commander leading unskilled fleets in the 0.6.x releases.  And if fleet has level 6 officers, there should not be more than nine of them (including fleet commander).  Obviously does not apply to AI fleets since cores have their own rules.

AI fleets should not violate officer spam either; they already have enough of an advantage with integrated alpha core (level 8 ) spam and overpowered hulls (namely Radiant).  Nevermind Tesseracts with special level 9 officers.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2021, 10:52:05 AM by Megas »
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Lucky33

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Re: A Leadership Capstone Idea
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2021, 11:00:03 AM »

Officer wise right now the whole leadership aptitude has to offer some very exciting choices:

Get two more substandard officers!

Or!

Bring your officers to the same level as the whole sector!

However!

The very best officers are under tech aptitude. Who would have thought!
The second best officers are only found in the derelicts!
You can hire any number of the best that Leadership has to offer without limits or actually investing anything in the Leadership. What a twist!

Comedy. Pure comedy.

You dare talk smack about Super Officer Gacha SSS+! The nerves on this guy!
Yeah at this point I'd prefer officers get nuked out of existence really, they are causing more headaches than fun.
If they were named hero units you can find throughout the sector in every playthrough, maybe I'll be down, but as it is, meh.
The game refuses to have you play with the same rules as the enemy, and then tries to make it so that you kinda play with the same rules as the enemy. This doesn't work, either our limits apply to the NPCs too, or you go for an entirely different approach.

It is not even a proper gacha... Have to use external portrait pack so it saves the game from being conquered by the clones.

And that brilliant moment when you decide that you need another set of officers so you have to sent all your combat comrades into the nearest airlock.

Because.
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SCC

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Re: A Leadership Capstone Idea
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2021, 11:24:16 AM »

Wolfpack would fit nicely as a tier 5 skill and I would welcome the bonuses being extended to destroyers. I think that destroyers are for low and midtech a strong ship class (Enforcers, Hammerheads, and Sunders are all top tier now, Medusas are pretty good too), so a reduced bonus would be fine.

I like the idea of the other skill being for larger ships, as in my opinion cruisers could really use help with the current skills. I think there's a pretty narrow range of the game where its worth having a cruiser instead of a capital (or for light cruisers a cruiser instead of a destroyer). Mainly just economic incentive, as capitals are expensive to run. Exceptions: the Fury is good as a superdestroyer cosplaying as a cruiser, the Aurora is decent playerbait, there's no capital equivalent to the Gryphon, and the Doom is changing the game difficulty to easy mode.

How about calling it "Decisive Battle Doctrine". For symmetry with wolfpack it applies to officered Cruisers, with a reduced bonus for officered capitals. As for the bonus: Wolfpack mirrors energy weapon mastery in adding more damage, the primary beneficiaries being high tech frigates. What if DBD mirrors gunnery implants? +10% range and projectile velocity, -20% weapon recoil, +10 speed (flat), half bonuses for capitals? The combo of range and speed might be too good tbh.
Fleet Logistics 3 would have been a decent tier 5. +15% max CR, guaranteed recovery of officer ships, decreased maintenance, plus some colony buffs.
I don't think Alex would accept Decisive Battle Doctrine as described, because it's specialised, just for ships that the other skill isn't specialised for, when Alex wants a choice between a general and a specialised skill.

The very best officers are under tech aptitude. Who would have thought!
A single very best officer in an overpowered ship, or a bunch of good officers in okayish ships.

You can hire any number of the best that Leadership has to offer without limits or actually investing anything in the Leadership. What a twist!
After getting some mercs, I wonder why Alex increased base officer number to 8. It's easy enough to get 2-3 sustainable mercs, though they won't be as good as your minmaxed officers.

intrinsic_parity

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Re: A Leadership Capstone Idea
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2021, 11:26:49 AM »

Another somewhat unrelated idea: what if the ability to use AI cores as officers was made a separate skill in leadership and AI cores could be put in any ship (obviously with caps on the number/quality of cores). That could be an interesting capstone against a human officer skill which combines some or all of the buffs of both the existing human officer skills right now.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: A Leadership Capstone Idea
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2021, 11:31:20 AM »

I don't think Alex would accept Decisive Battle Doctrine as described, because it's specialised, just for ships that the other skill isn't specialised for, when Alex wants a choice between a general and a specialised skill.
I think the goal of the 'special vs general' idea is to ensure that there is a good choice for almost any player, but if two skills are complementary (not using one means the other is good), then that sort of achieves the same goal.
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