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Author Topic: Tempest Nerf Options  (Read 1287 times)

Igncom1

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2021, 02:08:20 PM »

If I wasn't doing a high tech fleet in my game right now I'd give (using enforcers as my frigates) a go to compare  ;D

Deployment point wise, every low tech ship is half a high tech counter part.
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SapphireSage

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2021, 03:41:25 PM »

I don't wonder if this issue with Tempests is because Frigates are finding more use from people in 0.95 whereas they were left by the wayside for most players in 0.9.1 due to Objectives being important to capture and the game including many skill buffs for frigates via Gunner Implant Elite, Coordinated Maneuvers, Wolfpack tactics, and Targeting Analysis. Now that frigates are being used people are putting more focus on the strong outliers the Tempest and Omen, but the main detail to look at is what frigates are best at and what doctrines are best at.

It makes sense that the Omen and Tempest are considered best because High-tech's doctrine of high mobility and burst damage is in line with what a frigate can do best, move quickly into range, flux out and hit the target hard, and then back off and recover. Conversely, Low-tech doctrine of high armor and sustained ballistics doesn't work out so well when you can only have so much armor and guns on you compared to what a Dominator or Onslaught can field. Mid-tech frigates meanwhile might outrun anything larger sure, but its rather hard for say a brawler to strike at arms length when it can get two 1100 range weapons at best compared to capitals fielding many 1600 range (or more with Gauss/ATC) weapons or Eagles and Falcons running them down with many more medium mounts. The Kite is a meme because even though its otherwise very weak, its a 3 DP frigate that can sometimes get close enough with weapons that can really ruin your day. It won't do it very often and more often than not its just a punching bag for all of a second, but you will remember those times when a Kite Reaper gets through your notice and cripples you. Getting close and bursting is something that frigates can do to keep up against late game larger capital and cruiser spam and getting close and bursting is something that the Tempest is able to do regularly thanks to its fast speed, two Medium mounts, and HEF. Anything different and you take it away from what frigates can do to compete.

Its also what makes other stronger frigates considered so strong as well due to their capability to threaten capitals and cruisers, Afflictors, Hyperions, and Scarabs are all very capable of moving themselves into a position and with enough burst power to threaten a capital, the difference is that they have tricks to do so, while Tempest only has its raw speed and so can't strike with as much impunity as the above.

Other frigates that are considered strong or outliers do so in a manner different from the ones that people are most concerned about because they're strong at different things then taking down big ships. Omens, Monitors, and Centurions are great at holding out and taking down missiles/fighters and being a temporary shield to take up something's time. Anything else is considered either too strong because it can effectively hit against something larger than destroyer or forgotten about past the early game because they get taken out too easily by said big ships or their fighter complements while being unable to effectively threaten them. Aside from Afflictor and other phase frigates needing adjustments because their only real threat is getting caught by their target exploding, the Tempest is one of few frigates that's able to keep up with larger ships threat-wise when the main fleets clash together and it seems weird to want to nerf it now that frigates are starting to be something other than road bumps you kinda just run over when you start fighting the enemy fleet.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2021, 05:28:05 PM »

About mod balance overall, I think vanilla game must not rely on their balance at all, except cases where modded content get integrated in the game.

Yeah, but if vanilla goes around creating a bunch of work for modders over and over for no good reason, all the good modders will say **** it and go mod some other game.
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Sutopia

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2021, 06:01:02 PM »

Could you fix freaking wolfpack before touching tempest?

I don't care about tempest nerf since they've all retired anyways.
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Thaago

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2021, 11:10:50 PM »

... I just upgraded from a Wolf to a Tempest in a new game and the difference in power is like 3:1. I think that upgrade in particular gives people the impression the Tempest is more OP than it really is, as its a common early game progression.

Wolves are a 5 DP ship that are on the weak side, more like 3.5 DP actual worth (definitely worse than Centurions, about the same as a Lasher just faster but weakly armed). Tempests are a strong 8 DP ship, probably worth 10 DP. Neither is too crazy out of balance for their DP (I'd argue the wolf needs a bigger change than the Tempest), but that transition makes the gulf feel huge, especially magnified by player skills.
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SCC

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2021, 12:41:06 AM »

I would look at Omen and Wolf (I sometimes forget it exists...) sooner than Tempest.

prav

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2021, 01:38:50 AM »

If you just add at random two Tempests or three Wolves to my fleet at the start of battle I don't particularly care which ones I get. Give me two officers to go with the ships and the choice is easy, however.
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Thaago

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2021, 04:46:15 PM »

Playing some more with a frigate fleet: Tempests and high performance frigates are excellent small and medium ship hunters, but comparatively awful at taking down stations for their DP cost, and are very slow at killing isolated capitals too. Not nearly enough missiles/dp to be efficient at taking out a limited number of heavy targets. Hyperion is a bit of an exception as it does have that medium universal.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2021, 05:23:17 PM »

Heavy blasters are the solution to killing heavy targets. SO Hyperion with 2x HB does not need missiles, SO tempest can also mount HB easily. Without SO, things are definitely slower.
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Thaago

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2021, 05:32:59 PM »

Mm, I'm doing things without SO at the moment (not because I think its better, but to try), so I'm only mounting 1 heavy blaster (plus ion pulser) and that involves a lot of active venting. The more I play, the more I think tempest balance is in a good spot vs other ships.

Example: fighting a multi cruiser pirate with 3 tempests (only 1 officer other than me, bad luck so far) and 2 wolves. A falcon P, 4 collusus Mk II (the one with fighters), maybe 3 enforcers, 2 shrikes, a dozen assorted frigates maybe? I didn't bother counting smaller ships. Its interesting because the small ships go down incredibly fast, but the larger ships take a long time. The lack of both sustain (from flux without SO) and missiles means that raw hull takes a while to chew through. Meanwhile I know from my last playthrough that this is the kind of fleet that 4 (non SO) Enforcers would just smash all the heavy ships on contact but then take a while to clean up all the frigates.
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WeiTuLo

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2021, 06:28:58 PM »

4 (non SO) Enforcers would just smash all the heavy ships on contact but then take a while to clean up all the frigates.

What Enforcer build did you use? I used to have a pack of Phase Lance Wolves with reckless pilots that would easily kill frigates and pick apart heavier ships where assault chainguns would take too long.
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Thaago

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2021, 07:29:29 PM »

For non-SO I use Heavy needler + 2 heavy mortars + 2 vulcans for guns for pressure, but its the missiles that kill things like stations quickly. I've settled on half sabots half reapers in linked groups, for most fights, so for the officered ships 18 sabots and 6 reapers. They aren't the best at hunting but they are very tough and have decent overall DPS (250 kinetic at .8 efficiency, 440 he at .82 efficiency) to support the missile bursts.
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Ad Astra

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2021, 08:35:16 PM »

Its a lot more work to buff everything below an outlier than to nerf the outlier, or vice versa.

Well...yes, buuuut, buuuut...it's not "everything". I'm not going to sit here straight faced and tell you to make the kite (P) endgame capable (wheezing) but if people don't want endgame frigates to be dominated by high tech then you have to make low and mid tech frigates viable, yeaah monitor and centurion survive, I use them, but they won't be doing any damage and PPT still bleeds son! So instead of an unreliable distractor you slap a couple of high tech frigates and if they don't go "pop" 20 seconds into the engagement, they might just actually do some damage. Now do that with a Hound? A Lasher? (wheezing).
To play words on your quote, I believe its either buff what you want players to use or nerf the entirety or the game see if they end up using a freaking Buffalo (P). Personally, I believe High Tech best Tech 4 Ever! So I don't mind if they remain as such, after all, low tech is for poor peasants who can't afford the Regal Blue we refined ladies and gentlemen enjoy.
Imagine sitting there in space tech era and still not having weapons that go PEW PEW, these people got no standards I tell you, ugly brown colored poopy rustbuckets they fly!
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TaLaR

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #73 on: Today at 12:27:35 AM »

0.95 changes made frigates viable, but not all of them - only officer-ed ones. Which implies that frigate in question must be worth an officer. And weaker DP-cheap frigates just aren't.
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Thaago

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Re: Tempest Nerf Options
« Reply #74 on: Today at 09:56:07 AM »

0.95 changes made frigates viable, but not all of them - only officer-ed ones. Which implies that frigate in question must be worth an officer. And weaker DP-cheap frigates just aren't.

I agree with you that the weaker DP frigates aren't worth officers.

But I have an unpopular opinion that frigates were viable lategame without officers last version as distractions, escorts, and torpedo boats. The change to target analysis makes them take a bit less damage this version, and coordinated maneuvers + flux regulation + crew training apply even without officers, so I think they have come out a bit ahead and are still viable. Once properly built and buffed, I've found that my un-officered frigates can usually win or tie vs an officered enemy frigate of equal DP unless I get unlucky and it has an unusually good build/set of skills (bit of RNG there). And as a player I have the power to tip the duel in their favor, either by swapping command or by sending an interceptor strike.

But officered high performance frigates are way above viable, they are excellent, and the contrast is pretty stark. Something like an unofficered Brawler plinking away with HVDs: helping, but unlikely to do any heroics. An officered Tempest, Scarab, or Hyperion? I expect it to kill 4 times its weight or more (if there are enough targets).
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