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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Fragmentation got left behind?  (Read 3932 times)

Retry

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Re: Fragmentation got left behind?
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2021, 06:48:49 PM »

3x the dps but only half as effective compared to lmg against armour and even worse vs shields.
Regular lmg is good enough to take down one missile per salvo contrary to the vulcan which often seem to struggle at target leading.
Vulcans have 125 energy equivalent dps vs armor, LMGs/DLMGs are in the ballpark of 75-100 (armor pen doesn't really matter since both weapons have such tiny armor pen both are way within the range of 15% minimum damage to armor).  Shield, yeah, but if you're installing PD for its actual role of PD, it's because you're concerned with taking a Hammer to the bridge, not because you want to bully some shield gennies at point blank.  Vulcans do far more to alleviate that issue than LMGs or even DLMGs.
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Scorpixel

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Re: Fragmentation got left behind?
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2021, 06:51:31 PM »

I've got 2 vulcans on my enforcers instead of flak because they are so effective. I've seen them shoot down reapers, full volleys of harpoons, etc. They are certainly worse knife fighting weapons than lmg's, and the reduced range means they can't protect other ships, but they are fantastic point defense for the mounting ship. I'd say single lmg is... 20% as effective at PD, and double lmg maybe 30% as effective.
It seem i've got a personal grudge against frontward ballistic pd (and SO builds in general), the combination of short range and fast approach make taking down incoming fast volleys before those hits the shield feel somewhat unreliable.
Many players far more experienced than myself support extensive pd arrays, turns out i'm a vulture and my ships are lucky to even get 2 lmg/pd(beam).

Instead, a railgun/needler is top-tier kinetic, the enemy gets too scared about flux and only release dangerous missiles when panick-retreating, plus leaving larger slots for efficient explosive damage.
Shields can generally tank any non-sabot missile, fighters are a bigger issue because of their severe drain on flux and it happens that the aforementioned weaponry is quite good at thinning-out approaching squadrons.

Yes it is extremely vulnerable if isolated or flanked, but it's the fleet's objective to not end-up in this situation and keep attacking, frag dmg does very little regarding neutering the enemy. Dual-flak gets a pass on capitals due to obscene range and saturation potential.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 06:54:55 PM by Scorpixel »
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Goumindong

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Re: Fragmentation got left behind?
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2021, 11:33:25 PM »

It seem i've got a personal grudge against frontward ballistic pd (and SO builds in general), the combination of short range and fast approach make taking down incoming fast volleys before those hits the shield feel somewhat unreliable.

Well it obviously depends on what ships you’re using them on. On SO ships you can probably forgo front PD not the least of reasons that many SO ships have decent to very good shields. A Hammerhead or Sunder is rocking .8 shields. A medusa is rocking .6 shields. Even a gryphon is rocking .8 shields.

But low tech ships with 1.0 shields (or worse) cannot so easily afford to take hardened shields and eat everything up front. They’re going to lose the flux war if they do this. Rather they need to be able to kill missiles with PD.

And Vulcans kill missiles. A Vulcan IPDAI screen on an onslaught can kill an entire wave of atropos from a 6x dagger astral before they impact shields. (I think. Definitely with skills)

Another nice effect of the Vulcan PD screen is that you will shoot down doom mines as fast as they spawn.
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prav

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Re: Fragmentation got left behind?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2021, 12:13:55 AM »

Frag is energy damage with a bonus against hull.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Fragmentation got left behind?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2021, 12:45:58 AM »

Sunder has atrociously bad shields at 1.2. Only conquest is worse.
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Drone_Fragger

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Re: Fragmentation got left behind?
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2021, 10:23:05 AM »

Maybe the issue isn’t so much that frag is bad then but that frag weapons in stock are trash because of the low dmg-per-bullet value against basically anything due to residual armour.

Maybe what we need is some weapons that fire either single large shots a la mauler or hvd, or a small burst a la dual autocannon, with then high pet shot damage but obviously in frag.

I just can’t see myself ever taking frag outside of PD because it’s just not good at right now.
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Anvel

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Re: Fragmentation got left behind?
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2021, 10:30:32 AM »

Frag weapons are ok, especially after armor nerf, now they are good agents of all defense types and especially hull.
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Goumindong

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Re: Fragmentation got left behind?
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2021, 10:56:14 AM »

Maybe the issue isn’t so much that frag is bad then but that frag weapons in stock are trash because of the low dmg-per-bullet value against basically anything due to residual armour.

Maybe what we need is some weapons that fire either single large shots a la mauler or hvd, or a small burst a la dual autocannon, with then high pet shot damage but obviously in frag.

I just can’t see myself ever taking frag outside of PD because it’s just not good at right now.

There is a [Hidden] weapon that does this and is absolutely hilariously wonderful.

Buuuut. It’s probably better that it’s [Hidden] because like... well it’s very good to say the least.


In general it’s fine for there to be a damage type that allows PD to work. Frankly I think PD lasers should do frag damage too so they’re like... actually good at killing missiles.

edit: If you need a "reason" for them to do frag damage then say they work on a similar principle as the HIL, but instead of having enough power to vaporize armor they instead provide just enough energy to boil the structure, which causes these pieces of boiling metal to fly around the ship damaging internal components. The rate of boiling isn't enough to do significant damage to armor and any splatter is going to be directed away from the internal area of the ship. And the total energy output is quite low and so does minimal damage to shields. Hence Frag damage.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 11:45:25 AM by Goumindong »
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wei270

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Re: Fragmentation got left behind?
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2021, 03:25:51 AM »

armor nerf what armor nerf? can some one please explain?
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bobucles

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Re: Fragmentation got left behind?
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2021, 09:11:19 AM »

The armor nerf is mostly due to armor skills being weakened. Fragmentation damage is absolutely miserable against residual armor, especially on the beefier ships.


It is a bit annoying that Frag damage is 100%/25%/25%, when the other weapons are 50%/200%/50%. This causes fragmentation values to appear twice as large to compensate, creating an illusion of them being effective.

Ad Astra

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Re: Fragmentation got left behind?
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2021, 10:18:39 AM »

Get a load of this guy!. Imagine thinking that the Thumper isn't the single best weapon in the game.
But yeah, as stated, frag is mostly specialized anti missile and a nightmare to torpedo heavy builds.
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You can park your spaceship anywhere you want if you get along with pirates

Thaago

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Re: Fragmentation got left behind?
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2021, 11:07:15 AM »

The armor nerf is mostly due to armor skills being weakened. Fragmentation damage is absolutely miserable against residual armor, especially on the beefier ships.


It is a bit annoying that Frag damage is 100%/25%/25%, when the other weapons are 50%/200%/50%. This causes fragmentation values to appear twice as large to compensate, creating an illusion of them being effective.

Just fyi other damage types are 50/200/100 or 100/100/100 for energy. In theory they do full damage to hull, though residual armor is less effective against HE so in practice HE and large shot size guns are better vs hull than kinetics and smaller shot weapons.
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