Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it  (Read 3835 times)

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2021, 09:14:54 AM »

How about turning it back into what it used to be when it wasn't a combat d-mod thing? Not sure why so much combat is in the Industry tree now.

Because, as explained in the other thread, there needs to be big combat value on I4L to compliment the big combat value of I4R

I4L has zero combat value, it has after and out of combat value. Only Derelict Contingent has combat value on that tier. I have no clue why you think they both do.

Faster repairs and some free repairs isn't combat to be clear.

Please explain if this isn't what you are talking about.

I4L reduces and eventually eliminates the costs of losing ships in combat. This expands the effective lossless range that you can engage in and thus expands your fleet strength.  I4L also makes ships in your fleet stronger, DP for DP, by removing D-mods (when acquiring ships and over time).

I4L also makes it easier to re-engage due to the automatic repair, which increases your fleets power.
Logged

beholdadam

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2021, 10:41:11 AM »

Honestly, all I would do is:

"A quote about robbing Peter to pay Paul, something, something..."

  • Every month (or after being deployed in combat) there is a chance a d-mod will transform into a different one.
  • No d-mod is ever permanent.
  • Negative effects are reduced by 50%.
  • Elite: Maximum d-mods is 5 -> 3.
  • Elite: Supply cost to recover from deployment reduced by 20% -> 33%.

Compromised Armor
Compromised Hull
Compromised Storage
Damaged Flight Deck
Defective Manufactory
Degraded Engines
Destroyed Weapon Mounts
Erratic Fuel Injector
Faulty Power Grid
Glitched Sensor Array
Ill-Advised Modifications
Increased Maintenance
Malfunctioning Comms
Phase Coil Instability
Structural Damage
Unreliable Subsystems
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 10:44:46 AM by beholdadam »
Logged

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2021, 12:02:19 PM »

Any randomness is bs. Randomly swapping d-mod is worse than current meh-damage.
No fleet-wide skill is allowed to has elite effect iirc.

50% reduction is still too much (effectively double ehp). 30% at 3 d-mod would be reasonable.

I do agree 50% reduction for dp is excessive. How about capped at -30% (3 d-mod)?
Please don’t use falcon P as deterrent, it has its own issue outside of current discussion scope.
Logged


Since all my mods have poor reputation, I deem my efforts unworthy thus no more updates will be made.

Locklave

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2021, 01:58:48 PM »

How about turning it back into what it used to be when it wasn't a combat d-mod thing? Not sure why so much combat is in the Industry tree now.

Because, as explained in the other thread, there needs to be big combat value on I4L to compliment the big combat value of I4R

I4L has zero combat value, it has after and out of combat value. Only Derelict Contingent has combat value on that tier. I have no clue why you think they both do.

Faster repairs and some free repairs isn't combat to be clear.

Please explain if this isn't what you are talking about.

I4L reduces and eventually eliminates the costs of losing ships in combat. This expands the effective lossless range that you can engage in and thus expands your fleet strength.  I4L also makes ships in your fleet stronger, DP for DP, by removing D-mods (when acquiring ships and over time).

I4L also makes it easier to re-engage due to the automatic repair, which increases your fleets power.

I accept the re-engage as technically valid. Feels kinda exploity honestly. But point taken.

As for the rest. I could argue anything that saves me money allows me to afford better ships therefor combat skill or extra money means restores therefor combat skill for the same reason you listed. Improving your fleet in combat prevents damage, saving supplies, therefor it's a logistics skill. The stretching required to make that connection has the reach to make everything combat or logistics skill.

Everything other then the re-engage is directly logistics.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2021, 03:31:22 PM »

How about turning it back into what it used to be when it wasn't a combat d-mod thing? Not sure why so much combat is in the Industry tree now.

Because, as explained in the other thread, there needs to be big combat value on I4L to compliment the big combat value of I4R

I4L has zero combat value, it has after and out of combat value. Only Derelict Contingent has combat value on that tier. I have no clue why you think they both do.

Faster repairs and some free repairs isn't combat to be clear.

Please explain if this isn't what you are talking about.

I4L reduces and eventually eliminates the costs of losing ships in combat. This expands the effective lossless range that you can engage in and thus expands your fleet strength.  I4L also makes ships in your fleet stronger, DP for DP, by removing D-mods (when acquiring ships and over time).

I4L also makes it easier to re-engage due to the automatic repair, which increases your fleets power.

I accept the re-engage as technically valid. Feels kinda exploity honestly. But point taken.

As for the rest. I could argue anything that saves me money allows me to afford better ships therefor combat skill or extra money means restores therefor combat skill for the same reason you listed. Improving your fleet in combat prevents damage, saving supplies, therefor it's a logistics skill. The stretching required to make that connection has the reach to make everything combat or logistics skill.

Everything other then the re-engage is directly logistics.

Well no. When you lose a ship you must salvage it. The reduction in D-mods for salvaged ships means you're highly likely to get your ship back pristine. This means that you have a larger "no loss engagement window". It does not just "save you money" it means you can fight another fight relatively quickly.

Re-engages are not as common as they used to be i will say that. At least in prior versions it was very much no uncommon for battles to be big enough that they had to be split in two.
Logged

Locklave

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2021, 03:51:31 PM »


Well no. When you lose a ship you must salvage it. The reduction in D-mods for salvaged ships means you're highly likely to get your ship back pristine. This means that you have a larger "no loss engagement window". It does not just "save you money" it means you can fight another fight relatively quickly.

Re-engages are not as common as they used to be i will say that. At least in prior versions it was very much no uncommon for battles to be big enough that they had to be split in two.
It's 2 months between repairs, assuming you only had 1 d mod, that is not relatively quickly. It's a QoL thing, trying to make it into a combat skill via extra steps is a card trick. I clearly explained how adding additional steps allows everything to be considered anything.

I should point out that many d mods have zero impact on combat performance and pristine doesn't give bonuses. So that fuel injector damage being fixed isn't a combat bonus, it's QoL.

Also not losing ships in the first place means it does nothing for combat even accepting your logic.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 03:53:17 PM by Locklave »
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2021, 06:39:59 PM »

When you salvage a ship ships have a reduction in the amount of D-mods they have. Pristine ships that are destroyed in battle and salvaged have between 1 and 2 d-mods on them in general. With the skill they have between 0 and 1. (I am not actually sure they can spawn with D-mods after losing a pristine ship in combat)
Logged

Locklave

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2021, 02:43:27 AM »

Every logistics/campaign skill is combat if you add steps. Why do I need to keep repeating this fact? This is not how combat skills are defined.

Unless you find a way to recover a ship during the actual fight then I'm not interesting and it's overreaching.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 02:45:09 AM by Locklave »
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2021, 09:33:50 AM »

Every logistics/campaign skill is combat if you add steps. Why do I need to keep repeating this fact? This is not how combat skills are defined.

Unless you find a way to recover a ship during the actual fight then I'm not interesting and it's overreaching.

Reducing/eliminating the combat penalty for losing ships is a combat buff because it allows you to take harder fights without effective losses. If you can fight harder fights without losses your fleet is stronger
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12118
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2021, 10:23:07 AM »

In one fight (against battlestation at Chicomoztoc), I lost three Dooms.  All three were recovered without d-mods, thanks to Field Repairs.  Normally, losing three Dooms would be a reload moment, but because they had no d-mods, I kept playing (and swiped the pristine nanoforge from Chicomoztoc) instead of reloading.
Logged

Razor Feather

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2021, 01:26:00 PM »


I accept the re-engage as technically valid. Feels kinda exploity honestly. But point taken.

As for the rest. I could argue anything that saves me money allows me to afford better ships therefor combat skill or extra money means restores therefor combat skill for the same reason you listed. Improving your fleet in combat prevents damage, saving supplies, therefor it's a logistics skill. The stretching required to make that connection has the reach to make everything combat or logistics skill.

Everything other then the re-engage is directly logistics.

I'm gonna say that the cost savings from field repairs are large enough when you are taking regular losses that it does begin to enter a realm of its own on the logistics equals combat side of things. It can easily save you 500k-1 million credits after losing a capital ship by keeping one dmod from getting applied, and then later repairing the other one, so you don't need to restore. Especially with story point build ins making just buying a new ship a far less viable method of handling dmods, field repairs gives a very large boost in how many loses you can handle without it being a problem that just isn't equaled by other logistics oriented skills. Sure the dmod fall off takes a bit, but when half the time you don't even get a dmod on the ship in the first place, its just not a big deal. The dmods on my fleet never "build up" despite generally losing a ship or two every major battle, and occasionally losing as many as 7 in one go. Sure, I may have a fight or two with a couple dmods, but they always get back to zero eventually.

As for DC, I think it really ought to be brought back to the "dmods don't impact my combat performance as much and save me operating costs" angle than the "Dmods give me peerless durability" thing its got going on. You could scale back the level of buffs it gives for dmods, but it wouldn't fix one of the bigger fundamental issues I see it as having right now, in that instead of making dmods generally more tolerable, it makes it so that if you want peak combat ability you have to very carefully control what dmods your ships get with reloads so that you get as many as possible on the ship without getting ones that significantly impair combat performance, which is just... bad, and will always be a factor so long as dmods give combat benefits.

For making industry in general more impactful late game, I think giving tier 4 or tier 5s, or possibly both, a bonus to maximum ships in the fleet would be a good way to do it. Industry is supposed to be the "numbers over quality" type tree, and its just never really been able to bear that out once the player starts having a solid income stream and gets their preferred fleet composition. Giving a larger ship cap would really help sell that idea while also indirectly making the tier 4s more valuable, as more ships without officers means more losses and dmods.
Logged

Locklave

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 631
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2021, 01:57:44 PM »

Reducing/eliminating the combat penalty for losing ships is a combat buff because it allows you to take harder fights without effective losses. If you can fight harder fights without losses your fleet is stronger.

You don't get to redefine campaign skills as combat because of what you are arguing. Many combats taking place across a campaign being impacted indirectly doesn't make it combat.

I have no clue why you are so hell bent on defining it as a combat skill when it's clearly a campaign skill, as if they aren't allowed to impact what you bring into a fight and what you have for the next fight.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1889
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2021, 02:41:51 PM »

There is an example, like 2-3 posts above, of someone literally using this skill in order to win a fight that would have caused them to reload the game in the absence of that skill.

This skill directly increases the difficulty of combat encounter that you can engage in without effective losses. Logistics skills do not do that.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12118
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2021, 04:17:53 PM »

A notable example of Field Repairs shining is Ziggurat at the alpha site.  When I recovered it, it had two d-mods.  I checked its Restore cost - 1.7+ million credits.  At the time, I had a little over 2 million credits.  No way I am spending nearly two million credits to fix the Ziggurat.  With Field Repairs, the d-mods eventually disappeared, and I get to enjoy piloting pristine Ziggurat without breaking the bank.
Logged

Sutopia

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1005
    • View Profile
Re: Derelict Contingent: how would you like to change it
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2021, 06:41:48 PM »

A notable example of Field Repairs shining is Ziggurat at the alpha site.  When I recovered it, it had two d-mods.  I checked its Restore cost - 1.7+ million credits.  At the time, I had a little over 2 million credits.  No way I am spending nearly two million credits to fix the Ziggurat.  With Field Repairs, the d-mods eventually disappeared, and I get to enjoy piloting pristine Ziggurat without breaking the bank.

If an issue is solvable by credit alone, it's not an issue.
Colony can print infinite cash with minimum management if you know what you're up to.
Logged


Since all my mods have poor reputation, I deem my efforts unworthy thus no more updates will be made.
Pages: 1 [2] 3