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Author Topic: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?  (Read 1626 times)

Chairman Suryasari

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Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« on: April 24, 2021, 03:09:25 PM »

Alex, will you change your stand on mod policy when this game releases on Steam and get Steam Workshop support? You Rimworld right? A really modable game fill to the brim with content made by the community.

In that game term and services it basically says if you make a mod for this game and you release that mod on this platform/or make it public in general, it's basically become free for all other modder to edit and modify it, that's why there is so many unofficial versions, forked version, improve version, etc. And the game dev can add mod features without modder permission.

But there are still ethics on the Modding scene there, most of the modder and the dev will give you proper credits and everything but it's not required by the term and services. You can try to not give a proper credit, but it's basically an easy way to get look down upon by the entire community, generally not a good idea.

It's really good to preserve old mod that has been abandoned or the author has something to do like mandatory military services for Korean modder or simply the modder stop playing the game and leaving the community for example. Or to avoid feud, drama, and conflict in the community regarding mod content that the author knowingly made public.

So what your stand on that? Will you keep the mod policy to individual modder or take a similar approach like Rimworld dev?
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2021, 06:29:26 PM »

In practice, I don't see that ever being acceptable in this community.  The reason is because the vast majority of mods include custom art, music, and/or sound effects created by the mod developer(s) as a part of artistic expression.  Many use their work as portfolio pieces and want to retain the copyright to that work.

De facto, in order to apply FOSS principles to mods, rights to that artistic expression would need to be relinquished in order to support such a license agreement.  This isn't GPL, which only takes the source code into the public domain.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2021, 11:55:45 PM »

In that game term and services it basically says if you make a mod for this game and you release that mod on this platform/or make it public in general, it's basically become free for all other modder to edit and modify it, that's why there is so many unofficial versions, forked version, improve version, etc. And the game dev can add mod features without modder permission.
Where did you read that? Because the Workshop EULA specifically says that only Valve or the developer can make a fork of a mod, and only to make it compatible with changes to the workshop for Valve, or to "enhance the gameplay experience" for the dev.

EULA section:
B. Content Uploaded to the Steam Workshop

Some games or applications available on Steam ("Workshop-Enabled Apps") allow you to create User Generated Content based on or using the Workshop-Enabled App, and to submit that User Generated Content (a %u201CWorkshop Contribution%u201D) to one or more Steam Workshop web pages. Workshop Contributions can be viewed by the Steam community, and for some categories of Workshop Contributions users may be able to interact with, download or purchase the Workshop Contribution. In some cases, Workshop Contributions may be considered for incorporation by Valve or a third-party developer into a game or into a Subscription Marketplace.

You understand and agree that Valve is not obligated to use, distribute, or continue to distribute copies of any Workshop Contribution and reserves the right, but not the obligation, to restrict or remove Workshop Contributions for any reason.

Specific Workshop-Enabled Apps or Workshop web pages may contain special terms (%u201CApp-Specific Terms%u201D) that supplement or change the terms set out in this Section. In particular, where Workshop Contributions are distributed for a fee, App-Specific Terms will address how revenue may be shared. Unless otherwise specified in App-Specific Terms (if any), the following general rules apply to Workshop Contributions.

    * Workshop Contributions are Subscriptions, and therefore you agree that any Subscriber receiving distribution of your Workshop Contribution will have the same rights to use your Workshop Contribution (and will be subject to the same restrictions) as are set out in this Agreement for any other Subscriptions.
    * Notwithstanding the license described in Section 6.A., Valve will only have the right to modify or create derivative works from your Workshop Contribution in the following cases: (a) Valve may make modifications necessary to make your Contribution compatible with Steam and the Workshop functionality or user interface, and (b) Valve or the applicable developer may make modifications to Workshop Contributions that are accepted for in-Application distribution as it deems necessary or desirable to enhance gameplay.
    * You may, in your sole discretion, choose to remove a Workshop Contribution from the applicable Workshop pages. If you do so, Valve will no longer have the right to use, distribute, transmit, communicate, publicly display or publicly perform the Workshop Contribution, except that (a) Valve may continue to exercise these rights for any Workshop Contribution that is accepted for distribution in-game or distributed in a manner that allows it to be used in-game, and (b) your removal will not affect the rights of any Subscriber who has already obtained access to a copy of the Workshop Contribution.

Except where otherwise provided in App-Specific Terms, you agree that Valve%u2019s consideration of your Workshop Contribution is your full compensation, and you are not entitled to any other rights or compensation in connection with the rights granted to Valve and to other Subscribers.
[close]

(also bold of you to assume this game will get Workshop support given how it would basically break your save every other week because you can't block mod updates. Oh and the requirements on the game code are apparently not insignificant either)
« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 12:10:41 AM by Tartiflette »
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Chairman Suryasari

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Re: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2021, 12:14:57 AM »

Mods

You may create and distribute modifications, tools, or plugins ("Mods") for the game. By "Mods", we mean something original that you or someone else created that doesn't contain a substantial part of our copyrightable code or content. Ludeon has final say on what constitutes a Mod and what doesn't.

With regards to Mods, the following terms apply:

    Your Mods must be distributed for free, period. Neither you, nor any other person or party, may sell them to anyone, commercially exploit them in any way, or charge anyone for receiving or using them without prior written consent from Ludeon. Commercial exploitation includes but is not limited to in-game advertising, other advertising or marketing for any company, product or service.
    You may accept donations in connection with modding, but they may not be tied to the delivery of a specific product or service. You cannot try to push or force or pressure users of your Mod to donate to you in any way. Your request for donations must be unobtrusive.
    You may not advertise for donations within your Mods themselves.
    Your Mods must only work with the full, registered copy of the Software, not independently or with any other software. Your Mod may not be distributed together with the base game as a "modded version" of the Software.
    Your Mods must not contain any illegal material.
    Your Mods must not contain any material that violates copyright, trademark, or other intellectual property restrictions.
    Your Mods must clearly be presented as community-created content and not as thought they were official or made by Ludeon.
    Your Mods must not misrepresent what they are or their purpose, or deceive players in any way they wouldn't reasonably appreciate.
    Your Mods may not be used as a vector for spreading malware.
    Your Mods may not defame, attack, or bully any individual.

You own content you create. However, by creating any Mod or derivative work from RimWorld or making any content available on or through the Software, you agree to give Ludeon permission to use, copy, modify, adapt, distribute, and publicly display that content, for free or as part of a commercial arrangement. This permission is irrevocable and lasts forever. You also agree to let Ludeon permit other people to use, copy, modify, adapt, distribute, and publicly display your content, for free or as part of a commercial arrangement. This permission can be sold or licensed to anyone. Though we generally like to credit everyone for their work, we're not required to credit or acknowledge you if we use anything you created, or if we allow another to do so. If you don't want to give us these permissions, do not make content available on or through the Software. Please think carefully before you make any content available, because it may be made public and might even be used by other people in a way you don't like.

You're allowed to 'decompile' our game assets and look through our code, art, sound, and other resources for learning purposes, or to use our resources as a basis or reference for a Mod. However, you're not allowed to rip these resources out and pass them around independently.

https://rimworldgame.com/eula
https://store.steampowered.com/eula/294100_eula_1
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"Kids under 13 shouldn't have access to the internet. if 10yo me were on tumblr and read about suicide and depression 5 hours a day, every day, god knows i would jump off a bridge if my parents ever yell at me."

-Some random Youtube comment on video about Sonic OC.

Tartiflette

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Re: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2021, 12:54:10 AM »

Right, that is specifically Rimworld's EULA regarding the workshop. It's also a very crappy EULA that would probably be illegal in Europe. In particular:
Quote
[...] you agree to give Ludeon permission to use, copy, modify, adapt, distribute, and publicly display that content, for free or as part of a commercial arrangement. This permission is irrevocable and lasts forever. You also agree to let Ludeon permit other people to use, copy, modify, adapt, distribute, and publicly display your content, for free or as part of a commercial arrangement. This permission can be sold or licensed to anyone.
Not only you aren't giving up your rights "to the community" but specifically to Ludeon, and Ludeon can sell the license to use your creation, but if Ludeon gets bought all those rights move to the new owner.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 12:59:04 AM by Tartiflette »
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Chairman Suryasari

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Re: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2021, 01:06:56 AM »

Quote
(also bold of you to assume this game will get Workshop support given how it would basically break your save every other week because you can't block mod updates. Oh and the requirements on the game code are apparently not insignificant either)

About Steam Workshop, maybe I'm little naive about it, but I wish this game had one so I can try some unique mod out there from the other side of the world like Starsector Chinese mod community with the translation patch for example. So yeah, it's basically my egotistical reason for why I want this game to have one.

I also think about exposure to you guys, maybe more people will support you monetarily or we can make a Mod Marketplace where mod user and mode can easily order and take commission similar to Rimworld. Like you said Tartiflette you prefer paint job commission that can be finished with one day, with bigger exposure, you maybe will get more of them more often. 5 dollars for Itasha Onslaught seem pretty sweet.

But hey, who am I to say something like this right? I don't know the struggle of making a mod, I'm just the one who uses them so maybe my opinion carry little to no weight at all.
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"Kids under 13 shouldn't have access to the internet. if 10yo me were on tumblr and read about suicide and depression 5 hours a day, every day, god knows i would jump off a bridge if my parents ever yell at me."

-Some random Youtube comment on video about Sonic OC.

Tartiflette

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Re: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2021, 01:25:38 AM »

Here is the thing: we got a pretty nicely going modding community here. Almost all modder work their asses off to make every mod compatible so that there is no "load order" or "compatibility patches" mess like Skyrim. Why would you want to split that mostly well oiled machine by enforcing controversial rules on the Workshop? At best only a portion of the mods will get ported there because of those rules, and then you will still need to get on the forum to get the other mods. So what would be the point of having the Workshop in the first place? At worse you get a schism with two modding communities with mods that are no longer guaranteed to be compatible with each-other.

I also think about exposure to you guys, maybe more people will support you monetarily or we can make a Mod Marketplace where mod user and mode can easily order and take commission similar to Rimworld. Like you said Tartiflette you prefer paint job commission that can be finished with one day, with bigger exposure, you maybe will get more of them more often. 5 dollars for Itasha Onslaught seem pretty sweet.
"Think of the exposure" is a meme for a reason. (Also really? $5 for at least a couple hours of work?) Either modders don't want/care about money at all, so there is 0 point for that "exposure", or maybe they do but then it is several order of magnitude more efficient to route all downloads through a Patreon and avoid the workshop like the plague.

In the end, I think you are asking for a solution that doesn't have a problem to solve: you want mods to keep getting updated if the author left, but how many mods are there currently that are outdated, that someone wanted to pick up, and whose original author refused to give permission? I can think of one, maybe two, off a couple hundred mods. The main issue with mods dying has more to do with the lack of people willing to pick them up, not with some imaginary lack of permission to do so.

I would concede one thing that could be improved though, mods could be required to have a proper license to get moved from the wip "modding" section to the released "mods" section of the forum, and such license should precise if people are allowed to pick up the mod or not should the author vanish.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 01:53:51 AM by Tartiflette »
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Chairman Suryasari

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Re: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2021, 01:41:20 AM »

I'm sorry about the pricing, i don't know how much USD worth really is.
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-Some random Youtube comment on video about Sonic OC.

Chairman Suryasari

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Re: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2021, 01:58:08 AM »

Also, I personally don't believe there is a problem I just saw a couple of posts on the Interstellar Imperium thread, I immediately remember Rimworld that's why I want to ask this to Alex, it's a spontaneous reaction really. I just want to know what Alex think about and make it a guideline for all to see.

And please don't take any of this personally, I don't want both of us write a manifesto for each other, it's not a good use of our time.
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"Kids under 13 shouldn't have access to the internet. if 10yo me were on tumblr and read about suicide and depression 5 hours a day, every day, god knows i would jump off a bridge if my parents ever yell at me."

-Some random Youtube comment on video about Sonic OC.

Gwyvern

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Re: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2021, 03:11:22 AM »

I'm sorry about the pricing, i don't know how much USD worth really is.

A gallon of regular gasoline: $2-4
A decent meal: $3-5 each
Starsector: $15
A good meal: $20
Most Indie Games: $25 ish
Most AAA games: $60, maybe
A good mouse: $75
A decent drawing tablet: roughly $300
A viable computer: $500 give or take
Rent in one of the cheapest states: $750 and up, monthly
A good computer: $1200 and up
A functioning vehicle: $2000 and up
A trip to the Emergency Room: $4000
A good vehicle: $15000

This is just a vague spread of dollar values for various goods, loosely based on my own situation, and I live in one of the cheapest parts of the states, and it largely leaves out many recurring living costs. I hope it gives you a better idea.

'exposure' is only worth as much as you were paid, working for free only attracts the sort of people who expect free work. We modders largely do this because we enjoy it, but don't you ever think for a second anyone sane does it for 'exposure'.

Tartiflette already laid out most of the good arguments but another one is that, unless things have changed since my Skyrim modding days, steam workshop automatically updates all installed mods, which is fundamentally incompatible with how starsector works under the hood. On the unofficial discord, the mod-updates chat goes through at least a dozen updates per day, imagine being subscribed to even a quarter of those, and further imagine that any single of one them could brick your current save.

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prav

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Re: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2021, 04:01:31 AM »

I already give away the product of my work for free. I will not give away any of my rights to it.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2021, 05:55:36 AM »

A gallon of regular gasoline: $2-4
HA! Where I am, you get.... Less than a quarter of a gallon of gas for $4. But on the other hand, a trip to the emergency room would be 0.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 05:57:10 AM by Tartiflette »
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SafariJohn

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Re: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2021, 07:19:36 AM »

I already don't bother supporting Nexus. I would definitely not support Steam Workshop.

A gallon of regular gasoline: $2-4
HA! Where I am, you get.... Less than a quarter of a gallon of gas for $4. But on the other hand, a trip to the emergency room would be 0.

I think gas in the US is like 50 cents or less a gallon if you discounted all the gas and oil taxes. Probably about the same where you live.
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Gwyvern

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Re: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2021, 05:24:54 PM »

I already don't bother supporting Nexus. I would definitely not support Steam Workshop.

A gallon of regular gasoline: $2-4
HA! Where I am, you get.... Less than a quarter of a gallon of gas for $4. But on the other hand, a trip to the emergency room would be 0.

I think gas in the US is like 50 cents or less a gallon if you discounted all the gas and oil taxes. Probably about the same where you live.

The US heavily subsidizes the price of gasoline as a messy alternative to robust public transportation.
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v4l0rus

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Re: Mod policy for the future, Steam Workshop maybe?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2021, 10:10:24 PM »

I think mods should be hosted on the game's own website and not anywhere else.
The search function works amazingly well on this forum, so looking for version specific mods is not an issue, but yeah, in the (far?) future making a page just for mods with better accessibility, categorization, visibility, etc. would make things more simple.
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