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Author Topic: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?  (Read 5902 times)

chrysalisx

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What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« on: April 22, 2021, 02:22:31 PM »

All this talk of making it so that SO cant be built in got me thinking - the reason it's so OP is that it's one of the most expensive hull mods, so building it in is how you get more OP on player ships, something that you could previously do via a skill. Perhaps the answer is to just have 1sp be worth xOP worth of built in? You could spend 1-2 (3 with a skill) SP to get x OP more for your ship, flat. Or, perhaps you have to pick your built ins at that time & the leftovers get converted to spare OP, maybe with a small conversion cost to encourage you to spend the OP on hullmods? Probably have to figure out something to do with the current thing where it lets you have >2 logistics hullmods, and the fact that augmented drives are such a huge OP cost. Just food for thought I hadn't seen mentioned.
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Histidine

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2021, 08:23:44 PM »

Perhaps the answer is to just have 1sp be worth xOP worth of built in? You could spend 1-2 (3 with a skill) SP to get x OP more for your ship, flat.

I think I'd prefer some other fix to the "pick the most expensive hullmod to bake in" thing. Because a ship having a permanent hullmod reflecting an improvement in a specific area is more interesting than a general free OP coupon.

(My past proposal in this regard was capping the hullmod being free at X points (based on hull size); hullmods costing more OP take the excess out of the ship's general OP budget)

Bonus OP for building in a cheap hullmod fits the bill, I think I like it (though if the conversion ratio is too good the meta becomes "build in the cheapest hullmod" instead).
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Ad Astra

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2021, 08:55:21 PM »

Hey there! I had discussed that very same same solution with other people before.
While it might seem less interesting (because you don commit the ship to a specific build) making the SP improvement be a flat OP bonus opens up the greatest amount of variety in ship builds, while also making salvaged S-mods far more desirable and less luck based.

(Cue infommercial voice) Are you tired of getting built-in dedicated targeting core in your salvaged Legion XIVs? Well look no further!
The new "I use Sp investment as a commitment to the ship itself but not to a specific build" will solve all of your hull mod problems!
But yeah, salvaged S-mods tend to make a ship worse by being there than if they weren't there at all.
Maybe having 3 S-mods to improve Shields, OP and Flux, could be a way to make the improvement less general while still being very desirable in pretty much every situation. You could chose one of each or go all in for one.
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Megas

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2021, 04:56:12 AM »

I suggested +5/10/15/25 to max OP per story point spent in some other topic (that is probably buried now).  With that, player does not need to wait until the good hullmods are found first.  It is also less pressure.

For example, on Ziggurat, I am really tempted to integrate Augmented Engines on it, but that hurts its combat power.  I cannot get another Ziggurat, but I almost always have Augmented Engines on everything with burn less than 8.  For now, I have refrained, but it is probably a matter of time before I gave in and integrate Augmented Engines on big Z for maximum OP savings.  (Before people say bring more tugs, I cannot now that my fleet is filled up with ships, like several Phantoms for raiding.)
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Amoebka

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2021, 04:59:52 AM »

Having SP just grant bonus OP further exposes their complete failure to be "do cool things points". Them being too much of an arbitrary currency rather than a special fun thing is already an issue, and it doesn't need to become even worse.
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Megas

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2021, 05:02:22 AM »

Having SP just grant bonus OP further exposes their complete failure to be "do cool things points". Them being too much of an arbitrary currency rather than a special fun thing is already an issue, and it doesn't need to become even worse.
It already is.  As it pains me to write, story points ARE currency.  I hoard story points for officer mentoring, s-mods, and colony improvements.  Colony improvements are the worst with 2^n costs.  I do not use story points to do "cool things".  I use them as a min-max tool to keep up with the game's demands.

P.S.  I also need to save story points to respec character.  Now that the game encourages extreme specialization that varies by flagship, player needs story points to respec if he feels like piloting another ship at any given moment.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 05:04:55 AM by Megas »
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Ad Astra

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2021, 12:03:51 PM »

The thing is, they already don't work like "do cool things" points, they work like currency that is acquired in a different way than the other one. Doing cool things should be provided by opportunities within the world, not through an opportunity cost dynamic with "magical currency". As such, finding a derelict with built in improvements feels cooler than to put some mods in yourself, just like finding XIV Legions has always been a nice thing even if you don't really use them. Adding to it, judging by the "notable ship" system on the Ziggurat, we could assume that more unique ships will be available in the future, committing these ships to a specific build through the entire playthrough would probably be considered unrewardingly limiting by most, and won't allow for testing of many builds without needing to reload (mainly because the simulator is too different from actual fleets with officers).
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Megas

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2021, 01:02:03 PM »

The thing is, they already don't work like "do cool things" points, they work like currency that is acquired in a different way than the other one. Doing cool things should be provided by opportunities within the world, not through an opportunity cost dynamic with "magical currency". As such, finding a derelict with built in improvements feels cooler than to put some mods in yourself, just like finding XIV Legions has always been a nice thing even if you don't really use them. Adding to it, judging by the "notable ship" system on the Ziggurat, we could assume that more unique ships will be available in the future, committing these ships to a specific build through the entire playthrough would probably be considered unrewardingly limiting by most, and won't allow for testing of many builds without needing to reload (mainly because the simulator is too different from actual fleets with officers).
I can think of one good reason for more max OP instead of built-in hullmods - Ziggurat!

I am so tempted to integrate Augmented Engines on Ziggurat, but if I do that, it cannot be undone, and if I need a Ziggurat without Augmented Engines for maximum combat power, my option at that point is either find an earlier save or start a new game if I deleted the save.

Same can be said about Legion14, although there is usually more than one, and carriers kind of stink now.
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KDR_11k

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2021, 02:02:13 PM »

Colony improvements are the worst with 2^n costs.  I do not use story points to do "cool things".  I use them as a min-max tool to keep up with the game's demands.
I think that's the game telling you not to spend your story points on buffing all your industries.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2021, 02:11:25 PM »

There's not much reason to spend story points on colonies at the moment IMO. It's just extra money added to an already excessive amount of money. I think that there will be more stuff to do with colonies and money in the future so I'm reserving my judgement of that for now.
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Megas

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2021, 02:11:54 PM »

Colony improvements are the worst with 2^n costs.  I do not use story points to do "cool things".  I use them as a min-max tool to keep up with the game's demands.
I think that's the game telling you not to spend your story points on buffing all your industries.
But I will still do it.  It just means I need to grind longer to get those points!  After I s-mod the important ships, nearly the rest of my points will go to colonies!

It is not money I am interested in, it is meeting demand after I annihilate all of the core worlds.  After all, if I want to colonize everything, I need to take over the core worlds, and the only way to do that is to sat bomb them until they disappear and build new colonies over their ashes.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2021, 02:23:31 PM »

It is not money I am interested in, it is meeting demand after I annihilate all of the core worlds. 
I'm pretty sure you can do that with just items and maybe cores. Even if you want to do it without cores, you just need one industry of each type so you shouldn't really run into the 2^n issues at all, and it will always be a low priority story point sink since you will be totally fine waiting.
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Ad Astra

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2021, 02:38:52 PM »

Colony SP improvements aren't that strong at all, I think they shouldn't scale.
Having them be a sink for points and money is one of its main uses, but scaling points are a bit too expensive, so much that I never even improve industries at all. Honestly, I like the way getting new colony items works, finding powerful stuff around is a lot of fun and secret unique ships or blueprints could be added which could further improve the "archeologist of a lost era" feel you get when salvaging around.
Making ships with modifications far more impressive than the famed XIV (which are supposed to be irreplaceable) feels really weird, if high tier skills that give you special abilities were locked behind special missions however...now THAT would be something else.
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Amoebka

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2021, 02:42:49 PM »

locked behind special missions
Only if those are standalone missions like Red Planet. Doing 6 hour long quest chain to unlock gates is bad enough.
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Megas

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Re: What if Story Points just gave you more OP?
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2021, 03:00:26 PM »

Honestly, I like the way getting new colony items works, finding powerful stuff around is a lot of fun and secret unique ships or blueprints could be added which could further improve the "archeologist of a lost era" feel you get when salvaging around.
They would be if they did not spike Pather interest so much.  +4 for most items, +8 for the shunt.  It only takes +7 to plant a cell on a colony.  (Mining still adds +1, and Refinery +2.)  Since I consider Pathers a huge pain, I doubt I would use items unless I absolutely need them, like nanoforge and synchrotron to meet demand for military bases and other industries.

As far as I am concerned, most items are cursed items thanks to the Pathers ruining them.  They are more useful for adding Pather cells to the core worlds if I want to decivilize them over the long run instead of sat bombing them.

I was looking forward to trying to make use of them hypershunt until I looked at the files to see how much interest it added, and when I saw "pather8", I immediately said "Nope" and abandoned the idea to try to meet demand for a shunt.  (Now, I am considering abandoning my colonies for a better location, because proximity to a shunt was the only reason I kept my current colonies.)
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