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Author Topic: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions  (Read 6972 times)

Pappus

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2021, 10:15:40 AM »

Just saying you quoted me, when I pointed out that 3 flaks cannot stop the simulation onslaught double? annihilator setup without skills and that is with light needlers x4 assisting. I don't have IPDAI in my campaign yet, but it shouldn't be necessary in the first place so that the FLAK can perform.

And if your answer to !salamanders! is DOUBLE rear facing burst PD (14 OP vs 5 or 10), then that supports my argument more than anything else.

I will keep checking to see if something reasonable shows up along the way.
Regular Flak cannons or Dual Flak cannons? 3 Dual Flak cannons should stop anything with or without IPDAI or the Point Defense skill. My Conquest with with 2 Dual Flak, the 3 side facing tactical lasers, with the IPDAI and no Point Defense skill is virtually immune to missiles. The only ship in the Simulator that it can't solo is the Paragon. It can take on an Onslaught and an Astral at the same time and come out ready for more...

I tried 3 normal flaks, 2 flaks and a heavy machine gun (simply cause that is what I had access to in terms of PD for medium ballistic) for the legion and various laser variants for the new fury, but especially the latter gets completely overwhelmed by fighters.

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KDR_11k

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2021, 10:29:12 AM »

I pointed out that 3 flaks cannot stop the simulation onslaught double? annihilator setup without skills and that is with light needlers x4 assisting.
Quad pods, I believe. Honestly a heavy barrage like that should give point defenses trouble. Annihilator pods are pretty close to the worst case for point defenses, loads of quick low value attacks. And ultimately it doesn't even matter that much if some missiles get through.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2021, 10:43:47 AM »

An annie pod will always overwhelm a single flak because the flak doesn't fire fast enough. 4x annie pods like an Onslaught brings to bear requires very heavy PD to stop completely. 3x dual flak fully boosted probably still can't do it. The real power of 4x annie pods is it stops you from hitting the Onslaught with your weapons.
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robepriority

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2021, 11:19:34 AM »

I mean, annihilators are dumbfire missiles intended for pressure, PD being able to clear all of them would  defeat the point of using them entirely.

TaLaR

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2021, 11:28:44 AM »

The real power of 4x annie pods is it stops you from hitting the Onslaught with your weapons.

Used to be true, but Hellbore, Gauss and Plasma destroy missiles on their path. Plasma can pass through fighters as well.
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Retry

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2021, 11:32:42 AM »

Annihilator Pods have a fire rate of 120 rpm, Flak Cannons are only 60 rpm, so it's no surprise that they cannot destroy the entire rocket stream.  Flak cannons are solid against both bigger missiles (Harpoons) and tight missile groups (Locust, Swarmers, to some extent Harpoon Pods), but Annihilator Pods exist explicitly to screen enemy PD, especially things like single flak.  Also, 3 Flak Cannons are only 24 OP, 4 Annihilator Pods are 40 OP.

3x Dual Flaks (36 OP) completely suppresses 4x Annihilator Pod streams without extra help.  In fact, just 2x Dual Flaks (24 OP) does an excellent job of minimizing the damage an Onslaught's rocket stream does; a few shots might get through but overall the protection against that particular threat is satisfactory.  This can be tested painlessly by slightly modifying an Onslaught loadout, taking it out against a SIM onslaught and swapping some PD weapons.

Of course, this lasts up until the Onslaught's other weapons knock out your PD guns, since the PD value of a disabled PD gun is 0.  Flares can also complicate things, since even with IPDAI they'll force proximity fused weapons to detonate early and let the rockets get far more close than is comfortable.

As far as "PD Lasers are the best PD options" go, if I have a Hybrid slot and I need anti-missile defense, I have a few options depending on size and OP budget:  Vulcans, Flak Cannons or Dual Flaks.  Beam PD doesn't rank, Period.
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Goumindong

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2021, 12:55:21 PM »

Vulcan Cannons and Flack are... hilariously good anti-missile. With the skill or IPDAI they're obscene more or less able to shoot down any and all missiles before they hit you, regardless of the skills or equipment of the enemy.

A wall of Vulcan Cannons and IPDAI is one of the things that really makes an Onslaught shine, since these more or less allow it to ignore missiles.

3 flaks on the nose of the legion will not stop the rockets of the onslaught before impact captainless. That is how hilarious they indeed are. I can double check for the vulcan cannons, but unless something flies straight at them they don't perform that great either.

Maybe you don't distinguish between captain skills being good and weapons?

Well captain skills without the guns to do the DEEPS don't matter all that much. Vulcans with IPDAI and/or Captain skills are absurdly good PD. They do 500 DPS for 20 flux per second. Sure its frag DPS but missiles only have structure.

If i have the skills/equipment i will almost never run flac because flac competes with medium weapons while vulcans compete with small weapons and because Vulcans are more efficient overall. Though that might need an update with the LN changes. A skilled IPDAI vulcan wall lets you pretty much ignore all missiles including the ones with lots of HP like skill boosted reapers(and chops down fighters fast too).
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Razor Feather

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2021, 01:11:12 PM »

I got into raiding and I think the beloved dev might have made a very big mistake there. I went with like 600 random marines to an undefended outpost and selected ore for giggles.

It felt like a minute until the ore was finally shown. It was 25.000 ore. Who is supposed to grab this much and is there even a limit on it? To me it seems like I can grab infinite resources since more soldiers = more dots to place = more loot.

Addressing this part, since the pd portion is already covered by others here.

Raiding is definitely very useful, but has several limits that make it not "infinite" resources. For one, raiding effectiveness is based on a ratio of attacker strength / (attacker + defender strength). This means that your raiding strength can only approach 100%, and never meet or exceed it. The amount of "dots" you get is one for every 5 or 10% raiding effectiveness you have, can't remember which exactly, so there is a hard upper limit on how many you can place, and thus how much loot you can get.

Further, repeated raids on the same target in a short timespan make the defenses stronger and lower yields, so you can only really get so much from just constantly raiding one spot.

Finally, raiding lowers stability. Lower it to zero, and the colony you're raiding may decivilize, destroying it and making future raids impossible.

So yes, raiding is really handy and can be very profitable, but its not a free infinite money machine. And that 25k ore for example is only really worth 250k if you can actually carry it and find somewhere to sell it for full price, which is not really likely to occur. There is a reason its so easy to steal, its a bunch of rocks not worth guarding.
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WeiTuLo

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2021, 02:36:20 PM »

Sure its frag DPS but missiles only have structure.

Now I want an armored missile.
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Yunru

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2021, 03:32:55 AM »

Bit of a bump, but no-one mentioned how good the proximity charge launcher is versus swarms of missiles and/or fighters.

Sure it's technically got limited ammo, but I've yet to see a fight stretch out long enough that you run out (at least, with Expanded Racks).

Kohlenstoff

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2021, 04:47:36 AM »

I equip my Paragons allways with two double Barrel Flaks in the universal slots. These offer thanks to their Area effect enough PD to be able to do most missions solo without accumulating too much enemy fighters around my ship. They prevent even many reaper hits. No other PD system matched the overall value of double Barrel Flaks in Battle. Some are faster and some are more precise but the Flaks can get any PD job done while other PD weapons have weaknesses like being able to hit only one target at once or having too low DPS for the OP and occupied weapon slots.

AdmiralRem

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2021, 06:26:42 AM »

Kinda seems like what you want is everything at once. Which is not balanced. You can have perfectly good defense but at the cost of offense GASP :) Like many people have pointed out there are many viable options. You cant have it all.
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KDR_11k

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2021, 07:58:51 AM »

I equip my Paragons allways with two double Barrel Flaks in the universal slots. These offer thanks to their Area effect enough PD to be able to do most missions solo without accumulating too much enemy fighters around my ship. They prevent even many reaper hits. No other PD system matched the overall value of double Barrel Flaks in Battle. Some are faster and some are more precise but the Flaks can get any PD job done while other PD weapons have weaknesses like being able to hit only one target at once or having too low DPS for the OP and occupied weapon slots.

Honestly I think I'd rather stick needlers in those to crack the shields of heavy high tech opponents. If need be you can still use HILs or tac lances to clear out large fighter swarms.
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Deshara

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2021, 12:02:15 PM »

Bit of a bump, but no-one mentioned how good the proximity charge launcher is versus swarms of missiles and/or fighters.

Sure it's technically got limited ammo, but I've yet to see a fight stretch out long enough that you run out (at least, with Expanded Racks).

i dont think ive ever used it, nor have i ever seen someone use it. I think the missile slots are just too precious to give up for pd, even if it's just to slap salamanders on slots you arent otherwise using just bc of how deadly a flameout can be.
i think im gonna mod them to be a hybrid weapon in my game
edit: im also gonna modify all micromissiles to be pd instead of just anti-fighters, see how that works
« Last Edit: July 10, 2021, 12:51:09 PM by Deshara »
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Quote from: Deshara
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Kohlenstoff

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Re: Still sad that there is no good Anti-Missile thing & some questions
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2021, 12:43:43 PM »

Quote
Honestly I think I'd rather stick needlers in those to crack the shields of heavy high tech opponents. If need be you can still use HILs or tac lances to clear out large fighter swarms.
I use Plasma Cannons for this Job. I also use them for large fighter swarms. But the two double barrel Flaks have proven to be really valuable. Observe, how i don't have to worry about the fighters and got so more valuable live saving shoots left for the enemy ships. Without the flaks i would have been dead after the first half of this battle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ywnEzjbHe0
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