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Author Topic: Automated Ships skill sucks  (Read 15454 times)

WeiTuLo

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2021, 09:52:33 AM »

Has anyone gotten good use out of any of the mid-sized remnants? They seem like poor options compared to Radiants or frigate gamma spam.

I used to have a 1 phase lance 2 typhoon reaper 2 sabot SO Fulgent with some additional small energy weapons. It happily killed loads and loads of ships while roaming around.
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Thaago

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2021, 10:05:57 AM »

Scintillas are a lot worse than you make them sound. They are limited to drone fighters, of which the only bomber is the minelayer which doesn't even want to get teleported.

!! I did not know that! That makes them a lot worse, true. The wiki should get updated to reflect that as its not obvious at first glance. I think the minelayer benefits pretty decently from teleporting just because it shortens the round trip time, makes the replacement rate tick down less and recover more, but not as much as any of the other bombers because it has such a large ammo capacity/long attack run to being with.

The Scintillas in particular because they are backline ships don't require officers to be competitive, though a gamma core with strike commander, missile spec, target analysis, and free (either speed or defense probably) would give them a boost.
And "reckless+" personality.

Hmmm, but AI scintillas don't charge me even with officers. I'm pretty sure carriers don't have the same reaction to reckless as other ships? I run aggressive on all of mine so that their fighters target enemies instead of escort, and they don't attempt to engage in gun combat.
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Whitey_f242

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2021, 02:37:31 PM »

I don't understand why there's "limits" being put on player skills at all for what are mediocre or moderate skills. If a player goes on a serious drone killing spree and spends all that time capping and restoring Radiants, the player should be rewarded, not cut short. This weird obsession with "balancing" a single player game, let a lone a sandbox game's endgame, makes no absolute sense.

It's one thing to create skills that enable certain playstyles. This skill does not enable any playstyle. In fact, it prevents you from doing what it's trying to do. I see this as an overarching problem. I see this in the latest hotfix.
It needs to stop.
Nothing that has been "balance hotfixed" needed fixing. This is a sandbox. Let players build their sandboxes, please Alex.
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Locklave

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2021, 03:41:54 PM »

The problem is with the base cost being so low and for absurd reasons the AI core increases the cost we are talking about not nearly enough.

I played with the frigate stuff. Not worth it at all. Alex wants us to use these ships, but not really, as the chokingly low number of 30 DP + additional cost for AI core.

I stand by my Subject title. This ability is for people that wanna RP or enjoy the cool factor, it is cool, but it still sucks and clearly sub optimal. This will forever be something I'd like to take but will never take again.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 03:46:05 PM by Locklave »
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Flying Birdy

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2021, 04:53:04 PM »


I stand by my Subject title. This ability is for people that wanna RP or enjoy the cool factor, it is cool, but it still sucks and clearly sub optimal. This will forever be something I'd like to take but will never take again.

I think a big problem (as an earlier poster pointed out) is that the cost of the skill is not just 1 skill point; either 5 skill points are needed for a wraparound or the player does not get built-in systems. Either way, it's a huge price to pay for a single radiant.

I'm hesitant to say that just buffing the CR limit will be enough. I don't think it's a "good" skill choice even if the CR limit was increased. I mean I'll still wrap around and take it for the "cool" factor, but it's not worth 5 skill points even if I get to deploy two radiants.

I think the skill should just be moved up earlier in the skill tree or put into something like leadership so that it's less expensive to take or at least make the opportunity cost less punishing.
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Megas

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2021, 05:34:02 PM »

I think a big problem (as an earlier poster pointed out) is that the cost of the skill is not just 1 skill point; either 5 skill points are needed for a wraparound or the player does not get built-in systems. Either way, it's a huge price to pay for a single radiant.
This is why I have no problem Radiant being horribly unbalanced or overpowered for its class.  The other AI ships need to be brought to its level, not Radiant brought down to nearly every other ship in the game.

It does not help that Special Modifications is permanent.  If I get Spec. Mods, then I forever lock myself out of AI ships or have only five left for the other three trees.  If I get an officer skill too, then too many skills are locked for respec to be a viable option.

I would be satisfied if I can get Radiant with core full CR.  Right now, one fight before malfunctioning is annoying.  (I do not want Derelict Contingent if I want pristine ships, and I cannot get Crew Training if I give up Leadership for Combat, Industry, or double Tech.)  I am giving up phase god-flagship for killer Radiant, and I for sure did not get Automated Ships just to deploy a few more frigates with more PPT out-of-the-box just to keep up with the ECM race.  (Now that max penalty is -10%, I may not even bother trying to compete in the ECM race against AI fleets.)  If I get Automated Ships, I better get some disgustingly unbalanced or overpowered ship(s) for giving up Spec. Mods., and Radiant may be good enough.  I would like to get my hands on the Guardian.
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ModdedLaharl

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2021, 06:30:28 PM »

In response to the original post, artificial limits with no thematic reasoning or integration with the game's systems are a horrible idea. A better implementation of the concept here would simply be to make it very difficult to salvage automated ships; progressively more so the more powerful they are; DP cost or otherwise balance them correctly*, require a core to pilot them, perhaps do some other things related to maintenance costs, and if you really MUST still have a limit on them after that, at least flavor it. "Oh noes, as a captain, I can only have so many automated ships or the AI might turn on me!". Put in some level of minimum effort.

*(PVE difficulty should NOT come from the computer just blatantly having better resources; that's like a 'hard mode' that just inflates HP and damage values. It's lazy and meaningless and usually requires abusive strategies to beat, which is exactly what we've seen so far and is what, I hope, we are trying to avoid. PVE difficulty should come from testing the player's mastery of the game's systems and mechanics)

Do it this way, and the Automated Ships skill becomes something that increases player options and design space, without itself being either too weak to use nor so powerful that you HAVE to use it. If the skill it competes with does something similar, it becomes a fair choice; better, it becomes an interesting one that a player might actually think about.
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Amoebka

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2021, 02:03:02 AM »

Flying Birdy and Megas pretty much nailed it, I feel. The skill has a very high opportunity cost, so the ships it gives you should be overpowered, otherwise there's no point. Right now the only overpowered automated ship is the radiant (lumens get a honorable mention only because officer spam is overpowered).

Buff glimmer, fulgent, brilliant (or rather, nerf champion which supercedes it), and add a drone torpedo bomber (or a drone phase lance bomber) that actually benefits from recalling. And yes, that would make ordos even more terrifying. Which is a good thing.
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Szasz

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2021, 03:03:35 AM »

Contrary to what it claims Automated Ships does not give drone ships 100% CR to begin with regardless of FP/DP. It is bound to the same limit the crew has on their own ship BUT is penalized if Automated Ships CR drops below regular CR. After speccing for this why you can't keep a single Beta Core Brilliant in pristine condition in your fleet escapes me.

I don't understand why there's "limits" being put on player skills at all for what are mediocre or moderate skills. If a player goes on a serious drone killing spree and spends all that time capping and restoring Radiants, the player should be rewarded, not cut short. This weird obsession with "balancing" a single player game, let a lone a sandbox game's endgame, makes no absolute sense.
It's one thing to create skills that enable certain playstyles. This skill does not enable any playstyle. In fact, it prevents you from doing what it's trying to do. I see this as an overarching problem. I see this in the latest hotfix.
It needs to stop.
Nothing that has been "balance hotfixed" needed fixing. This is a sandbox. Let players build their sandboxes, please Alex.

This.
All skills feel limiting in what they appear to enable at first glance. Some tiers are completely useless if they don't mix with your playstyle but are requirements to enable higher tiers nonetheless. Descriptions are misleading. So as skill names.
Balancing is not a terrible idea, but needs to find the sweet spot. Diminishing returns kicks in hard. For example combat readiness bonus is practically useless with a bigger fleet. What is the name of that skill? Crew training my ass.
I'm over being nostalgic. This is objectively screwed up, I had better experience on 0.91.

ps. I was at least happy about removing hullmod costs with story points even if they are scarce. Then comes a recent patch note "Safety Overrides can no longer be built into ships using story points"
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 03:10:31 AM by Szasz »
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Sabaton

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2021, 04:30:54 AM »

I don't understand why there's "limits" being put on player skills at all for what are mediocre or moderate skills. If a player goes on a serious drone killing spree and spends all that time capping and restoring Radiants, the player should be rewarded, not cut short. This weird obsession with "balancing" a single player game, let a lone a sandbox game's endgame, makes no absolute sense.

It's one thing to create skills that enable certain playstyles. This skill does not enable any playstyle. In fact, it prevents you from doing what it's trying to do. I see this as an overarching problem. I see this in the latest hotfix.
It needs to stop.
Nothing that has been "balance hotfixed" needed fixing. This is a sandbox. Let players build their sandboxes, please Alex.

Yeah these kinds of discussions have been going on for years... and we'll likely only see a resolution after 1.0. 

Personally I've never agreed with these types of hard limits the devs imposed, the only limit on fleet size should be the cost of fuel/crew and supplies.

And If the players wants a fleet full of AIs then the only limit should be said supplies and increased scrutiny from other factions, Hegemony and Church.
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Megas

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2021, 05:33:29 AM »

Buff glimmer, fulgent, brilliant (or rather, nerf champion which supercedes it)
Champion does not need a nerf.  If anything, it needs help.  Champion would have been good or great last release, but now its lack of solid defenses (low mobility and small front shield) hurt it.  It feels like a more expensive Apogee that trades defense for a little more firepower and a better missile mount (that can use Hammers).
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Avanitia

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2021, 06:25:31 AM »

From my personal experience, Automated Ships skill is really good at 60 points (which I changed with this mod), because it allows you to use destroyers and cruiser or two without CR dropping to sub-50%.

From frigates, I have used Glimmers - Ion Pulser, 2x PD Laser, 2x Sabot, add Reinforced Bulkheads or Heavy Armor as s-mods, Expanded Missile Racks are a good idea too. Max vents, maybe capacitors too. Gamma Core as officer, picked uh, Energy Weapon Mastery, Reliability Engineering, Shield Modulation, Helmsmanship. I don't remember the exact build really, it was few runs ago, but that's the gist of it.

It was extremely effective due to not backing down and being able to shut down enemy ships, it could break armor with High Energy Focus, so it was pretty good against cruisers and smaller ships. A chunk of my fleet is mobile enough to make use of openings like that.

From destroyers, well, Fulgent is only real option. Scintilla has access to non-crewed wings only, which makes it... kinda worthless. Especially with its system (maybe add a hullmod that allows usage of crewed wings? who knows) which doesn't benefit most of wings you can put on it anyway.
Anyway, back to Fulgent. My personal favourite is 2x Typhoon Reaper in synergy turrets, because why not. Put Sabots in half of small synergies, Heavy Blaster in medium hardpoint, accompanied with 2x Ion Cannon, use rest of the slots for PD Lasers. Expanded Missile Racks / Heavy Armor / Hardened Shields as s-mods, max vents. Similar skills to the Glimmer officer.

Works quite well as damage dealer and for finishing off overloaded ships. 2 Reapers is nothing to laugh at... especially if you're overloaded and in range of these things...

Overall the skill would benefit from increase of possible points to 60 and have Radiant's DP set to 60 instead. That makes smaller ships more viable while still allowing player to run a Radiant if they so desire. That might even make some Explorarium ships somewhat viable? I did try Sentries with stuff like Salamanders and Harpoons. Kinda funny to see a lot of Salamanders just flying across the battlefield. They still died easily though, maybe I should have put Safety Overrides on them and nothing else and use the power of annoying AI against itself  :D
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NaniByte

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2021, 06:54:38 AM »

It gives you exactly enough for 1 single Radiant with a Gamma core before the absurd 30 point cap is exceeded destroying CR.

So the choice is Special modifications giving your fleet a huge buff and unlocking a 3rd mod slot or 1 Good ship with the worst AI core.

Is this a joke or something? How does anyone pick this and not feel ripped off? Minimum it should be 2 Radiants with 2 Alpha cores for 70% CR. This skill currently isn't even in the same galaxy as Special modifications.

This feels like a placeholder or something. I'm glad a can spec outta this garbage.

LMAO. One Alpha core Radiant with the skill that gives 15% CR is literally the best 40DP in the game. And you can give it three built in mods and more vents and caps. That ships can 1vs10. Backed up by the player in a Ziggaruat, with some Omens and Dooms to fill in the DP gaps, the game regarding combat is over. I think it's possibly the best skill in the game. If it was any stronger, for example allowing you to have two Radiants (LMAO) as you suggest, that would be completely and utterly overpowered.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 09:44:36 AM by NaniByte »
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Goumindong

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2021, 12:24:04 PM »

It gives you exactly enough for 1 single Radiant with a Gamma core before the absurd 30 point cap is exceeded destroying CR.

So the choice is Special modifications giving your fleet a huge buff and unlocking a 3rd mod slot or 1 Good ship with the worst AI core.

Is this a joke or something? How does anyone pick this and not feel ripped off? Minimum it should be 2 Radiants with 2 Alpha cores for 70% CR. This skill currently isn't even in the same galaxy as Special modifications.

This feels like a placeholder or something. I'm glad a can spec outta this garbage.

LMAO. One Alpha core Radiant with the skill that gives 15% CR is literally the best 40DP in the game. And you can give it three built in mods and more vents and caps. That ships can 1vs10. Backed up by the player in a Ziggaruat, with some Omens and Dooms to fill in the DP gaps, the game regarding combat is over. I think it's possibly the best skill in the game. If it was any stronger, for example allowing you to have two Radiants (LMAO) as you suggest, that would be completely and utterly overpowered.

Yea. If you have the 15% CR from Leadership you can get a Alpha Radiant to 90% CR... Which is entirely enough considering its an extra officer in probably the strongest ship in the game that comes with like.... 8 upgraded skills
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Amoebka

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Re: Automated Ships skill sucks
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2021, 12:38:42 PM »

Yea. If you have the 15% CR from Leadership you can get a Alpha Radiant to 90% CR...
Alpha Radiant is 30% base CR. 45% with the industry skill on the core, 60% with that and leadership.

Still plenty good, but not sure where you got that 90% to begin with.
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