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Author Topic: [0.97a-RC10] Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.62  (Read 308265 times)

Quillithe

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.57
« Reply #120 on: August 31, 2022, 07:39:30 AM »

Still enjoying the mod, just felt like adding some more comments since I like to hear myself talk (hear myself type?)

Keep in mind that I just bought this last month so I'm not some venerable Starsector pro or anything.

Frigates: Honestly should try more, but I got a Stiletto and shooting missiles everywhere seems effective maybe?  They do mostly seem fast and survivable which is what you want in frigates.

Destroyers: The Piran is surprisingly good in combat since it's a pseudo-carrier.  The Dismas seems about right, kinda like a Medusa.  The Lauretana is decent enough in combat I actually didn't realize it was supposed to be a troop carrier.

I haven't tried one outside of testing but the Eustace seems to be pretty absurd even under the AI since it can 1v1 most cruisers under AI control and just gets better with player control and larger fights.  I guess it does cost cruiser points to deploy, but still!

Cruisers: Principality does get in less trouble than the Aquinas, since it tends to hang back more and fire that efficient weapon it has.  I also probably don't consider systems enough.  They both seem pretty good, to be honest - good enough to compensate for battlecarriers usually being a bit awkward.

Chrysostom somehow feels more like a destroyer to me - I guess it's a light cruiser.  Maybe I'll look at combat logs but they don't feel like they're doing much.  Lazarus is a great tank to have around.

I still like the Gemma, but there's an interesting tradeoff - later on all of the support ships being militarized and counting towards the combat ship count can be bad.  On the other hand being able to equip your freighters for specialized combat purposes and send them in to empty a hammer barrage at the enemy capitol ship can be nice too.

Capitol ships: Abysswalker still doesn't work for me somehow.  It seems inspired by the Odyssey which is my favorite vanilla capitol, but losing the large mounts for medium mounts and needing to line up the ship instead of having turrets and losing the free eccm and sensors keeps me from enjoying it as much (though it does get some stat boosts in comparison).  It is low maintenance, so I guess it's still okay as an exploration capitol ship, but I'd still probably just explore with 3 Gemma for less maintenance, cheaper surveying, better sensors, far more cargo, and 3 large missile mounts in combat for less points (especially since large torpedo mounts just eat remnant ships)

Dragonhunter is pretty excessive - I put revolver cannons in all the frontal small mounts and long range HE weapons in the mediums (some other mod weapons, but Maulers would work too).  It generally just sprays shots all over outside of enemy range.

Haven't tried the others yet, I'm pretty cheap and like to capture them from bounties.

As far as weapons:

The small mount revolver cannon is a bit excessively long ranged for a small mount, maybe a bit too good.
Does the poleaxe at medium kinetic just outperform energy weapons since it does both types?
The 25 point fighters seem pretty strong since most carriers can't really use the points effectively anyway.  If I'm feeling silly, you could put an auto-hound on a buffalo mk 2 with a converted fighter bay, and then get unlimited hounds for 4 deployment points instead of a single one for 3 deployment points.

Not that I'm complaining, that sounds fun!
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Evil Atlas

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.57
« Reply #121 on: September 02, 2022, 09:36:06 PM »

I've been thoroughly enjoying Quillithe's ship reviews and this mod in general, so I figured I'd pitch in with my own thoughts on various ships. I should note that this is coming from someone who's well into the endgame of a Nexerelin run, though I've been collecting and using MVS ships over the course of the run. I'll only talk about ships I've used frequently enough to give useful input on (and most of these are with default loadouts).

Frigates:
  • Kriss: I'm a great fan of this little ship. It fills the same cheap scouting, harassment, and capture roles as the Wolf, but I find it to be much more survivable, and it pairs that with more enduring firepower at the cost of burst damage. As a bonus, it has plenty of point defense, so it can also function as a PD escort.
  • Stiletto: A solid mid-tier frigate that I've used extensively, usually paired with the Kriss. It tends to be slow to kill, especially against things larger than itself, since its weaponry is usually heavily tilted towards low-damage kinetics and missiles. However, this also makes it a great harasser, battering shields and occupying point defense from a safe distance, and the Stiletto itself has the shields, PD, and flux capacity to keep it up for a long time. Very comparable to the Tempest, which is less resilient but has better speed and burst damage.
  • Kampfmesser: I'll admit I don't have much respect for this one. While it has a bit more hull and armor than the similarly priced Stiletto, it's markedly slower and tends to struggle with flux. I suppose it may be useful as an escort, given how many small PD weapons you can fit on it, but there are cheaper ships for that task. All that said, it's intended as the standard patrol frigate, so it's fitting for it to be somewhat mediocre.
  • Shashka: I probably haven't given this heavy frigate the chance it deserves. I rarely use frigates when I could get a decent destroyer for the same cost, and this is only one point cheaper than a Dismas heavy destroyer. That said, what testing I have done with this bears out its stated effectiveness against other frigates, and it has low crew and fuel requirements for its cost. And, since it's a frigate, it can deploy from the sides in pursuit missions.
  • Ascalon: This thing's just fun. It has everything a super-frigate needs to be great, plus a very long peak performance time. Good for flying around the flanks and dismantling things under player control. Probably not worth its cost if left in AI hands.

Destroyers:
  • Piran: A salvage gantry that can also provide combat support and cargo space to make up for its maintenance and fuel costs. A worthwhile logistics ship. I tend to bring one of these in my fleet by default.
  • Lauretana: A highly aggressive assault destroyer that can also provide ground support. I've found it to be a good ship for player control, especially in its overdriven build. It tends to fare poorly in AI hands, though, particularly in comparison to the other MVS destroyers of similar cost.
  • Dismas: Speaking of better MVS destroyers, the Dismas-class heavy destroyer has more than earned its place as a staple of my fleets. It's exceptionally tough for its cost and has a powerful and versatile weapon loadout, with a good chunk of those weapons being built in (which means you don't have to worry about finding replacements if you salvage one). It's a destroyer that can hold its own in a battle line alongside cruisers. The core of my standard fleet is a Cainhurst fast battleship, two Lazarus heavy cruisers, and two of these, and for good reason.
  • Eloy: A Sunder that has sacrificed main gun versatility for answers to its frame's greatest weaknesses. It need no longer fear strike craft; its armor has nearly doubled, its wide shield is far more efficient, and it is accompanied by two highly effective PD drones. It need no longer fear the combination of a short-ranged main gun (outside support configs) and its own fragility; the built-in particle projector has a base range of 1000, and the revolver cannons that typically supplement it can match that range. And all for only a two-point DP increase. Highly recommended as a fire-support complement to the Dismas.
  • Odilia: A scout destroyer with an ECM package and High Resolution Sensors. Its combat effectiveness against anything larger than a frigate is questionable, but you bring it for the fleetwide buffs, not the guns. It's cheap enough that I usually keep one on hand.
  • Eustace: It's advertised as a counter to phase ships, and it does that job well. It does a similarly good job of countering pretty much anything else. It's expensive enough relative to its straight combat stats that I'm not confident about spamming it, but having one or two is amazing when there's some enemy ship that you just don't want to deal with. Phase ship? It's not phasing anymore. Radiant? It has to sit there and let you shoot it. Definitely good to have.
  • Intervention: A huge gun with a destroyer built around it. I have the same problem with this one that I do with the Shashka: I'm sure it's good at what it does, but when given a choice between a destroyer and a cruiser of the same price, I'll usually take the cruiser. I'm sure this is great fire support when you have the points and confidence to deploy it, though.
  • Cipher: A phase destroyer armed with cruise missiles and a fire rate accelerator. Is it good? I'm honestly not sure. Is it fun? Well, launching volleys of cruise missiles sure is fun! This is one of those ships that I mostly keep around for personal entertainment rather than broader fleet doctrine or effectiveness.

Cruisers:
  • Dominic: I admit I thought Quillithe was talking about these when talking about the "budget Apogee", and I was surprised when they said they were using them for long-range fire support. Turns out they were talking about the Gemma, not the actual modified Apogee, which makes more sense; I've found the Dominic to be an exceptional light strike cruiser rather than any sort of fire support craft. With good speed, good gun options, and a large missile rack, these can reliably hunt destroyers and flank battle lines without being so fragile that you have to keep a constant eye on them. And as a bonus, they have High Resolution Sensors on a cruiser hull. Given their very reasonable cost, I highly recommend them.
  • Falcon (MVS)(EW): Basically a cruiser-sized Odilia for twice the cost and not nearly twice the effectiveness. Its EW ability is interesting, but it's rarely (if ever) useful enough to justify using this over practically anything else.
  • Object 815: We're told it's outdated, and its performance bears this out. This is not to say it's bad, it's perfectly serviceable as a cost-effective support vessel, but there are better options out there.
  • Aquinas: This ship combines three fighter bays with a solid weapons spread (including a gluon lance, the first we've seen in a default loadout so far), good speed, and a great special ability. It lives up to its "advanced" title and reputation. I haven't been using it lately only because it doesn't fit in my current fleet doctrine.
  • Lazarus: A hulking heavy line cruiser. It is designed to slowly fly forward until the enemies are in range, then shoot them until one side or the other dies. Simplified maintenance and rugged construction mean they're reliable fleet mainstays, despite their high deployment costs. I'm still not entirely sure they're worth 30 points, they're not that much better than a Dominator, but they're solid enough that I keep two of them as part of my standard fleet's main line.

Capitals:
  • Abysswalker: I only got one of these recently and haven't used it much yet. From what little time I have spent with it, I've gotten the impression that it does a battlecruiser's job well: It can hunt down and kill anything smaller than itself, and is fast enough to escape anything bigger. Plenty of guns, plenty of flux dissipation and capacity, space for a gluon lance and fighters, simplified maintenance protocols... yes, I can see how this would be the standard capital ship for MVS. As long as you aren't expecting it to go head to head with battleships, it should serve you well.
  • Dragonhunter: Frankly, this thing is hilarious. One would think that a giant gun covered in smaller guns would be fragile, but it isn't, so if you're fighting one you have to deal with railgun shots and missile barrages for quite a while before you finally get close enough to shoot back, and then you have to chew through a full-durability battlecruiser while it tries to fly away from you (while shooting you) using maneuvering jets. It's absolutely worth its price in long-distance shield suppression alone. Just don't let it get overwhelmed, especially by low-tech battleships that don't much care about all the kinetic hits. It's not that tough, and it starts to have flux problems when the enemy is shooting back.
  • Dominion: The traditional capital-scale carrier, now with better guns and a fighter focus. I'll admit I'm not sure how I feel about this ship. It's dangerous, sure, and it looks great, but I question whether its role would be better served by a pair of carrier cruisers and a combat transport or two. Or just get three Herons for the same cost, if you're just in it for the flight decks. The Dominion offers enough firepower that it's almost a battlecarrier, but it doesn't really have the hull and armor to do that job well, nor the speed to get away if pressed. Frankly, I think I just need to experiment with capital carriers a bit more to figure out what their strengths are, because I have the same problems with the Astral. (And the Dominion is even more expensive.) I was able to kill a Paragon one-on-one in sim without much trouble, so the cost probably isn't wrong...
  • Cainhurst: And now we come to the pinnacle. The pride of Mischmetal's fleets. The Cainhurst-class fast battleship. This thing, especially in lancer configuration, is an absolute monster. It's fast, it's tough, it has shield suppression, it has armor penetration, it has guns to murder big things and guns to murder little things, and it has a ship system that makes all of that better at the cost of a small portion of its lengthy peak readiness time. It can take on a Paragon and have a solid chance of winning, but it's also fast enough to catch cruisers and get its guns onto smaller things. Stick enhanced turret gyros on it and it starts one-shotting frigates with its gluon lances. Stick a frontal shield adaptation on it and it gets a 360-degree shield with high efficiency. I've been using one as a fleet anchor for a while now, and with a level 7 officer this thing was able to solo 160-point fleets in the simulator back-to-back-to-back without taking meaningful armor damage. And on top of all of this, it has a maximum burn speed of 8, so it's competing with cruisers and battlecruisers for fleet space, not other battleships! Something is probably wrong with the balancing on this one, but oh boy is it satisfying to watch it kill things.
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Klokinator

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.57
« Reply #122 on: September 03, 2022, 07:01:50 PM »

Hey there, I think I found an error with the Vavela's loadouts?



This turret is a Medium Ballistic.



This turret is a Medium Ballistic Slot. But, the one on the mirror opposite side is a Small Ballistic.



I think they should both either be small or medium, personally.
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Unit9461

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.57
« Reply #123 on: September 05, 2022, 07:11:49 PM »

Hey there, I think I found an error with the Vavela's loadouts?



This turret is a Medium Ballistic.



This turret is a Medium Ballistic Slot. But, the one on the mirror opposite side is a Small Ballistic.



I think they should both either be small or medium, personally.
yeah, definitely should be a small,
haven't touched the thing in over a year.
I'll fix it next update!
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Stormy Fairweather

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.57
« Reply #124 on: September 24, 2022, 04:40:54 AM »

Yo, mod maker. love the mod, but i found an issue with one of yer ships. the piran logistics support ship comes with militarized subsystems integrated, but it doesnt have a civilian grade hull. this results in the minimum crew requirement being higher than the max crew the ship can hold.
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Taverius

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.57
« Reply #125 on: October 03, 2022, 04:49:47 PM »

Haven't played as the faction yet, but I did land at one of the markets several times as it was friendly and close to the area i was exploring.

I like the music, but it feels a bit too loud?
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Killian

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.57
« Reply #126 on: October 19, 2022, 07:59:02 AM »

I like the music, but it feels a bit too loud?

Not only that, but it stops and starts rather noticeably. All of the vanilla faction music loops seamlessly, whereas the MVS market music does not. The effect is rather jarring.

This isn't to say the music itself is bad, but rather badly used. The market music should be unobtrusive and loop nicely, because it's going to be what the player listens to whilst using the Fleet, Refit, and Market menus at any MVS-owned installation.

Ed: Musical gripes aside, I'm liking the rest of the faction so far. The ship designs look unique without looking too out of place, as do the weapons, and I think the "reverse-engineered/redesigned & overhauled hull" is a neat concept too. I think my only complaint thusfar is that the faction's markets seem to be a little lacking in faction weapons and occasionally ship variance. It seems very hard to pick up any of the large-mount equipment in particular, aside from a small handful of items, and faction-specific production output seems very low compared to other factions; I mostly see "common" equipment at the MVS docks.

Also also the techprint only has most of the hulls/weapons/fighters, not all of them. I estimate around half the faction's large weapons are missing from the print, along with all of the large hulls. Can we either get a rarer "high end" print at some point, or get more stuff added to the main print, so we can more easily build our own equipment? I see a fair chunk of items are tagged as rare_bp in ths csvs, which makes them rarer and rarer the more stuff you add to the game and all.

After getting some more playtime in, I think what MVS could do with is... well, two things. For one, a slow and dependable heavy cruiser or capital that can make heavy use of the railcannon and iapetus drivers, and a fleet missile carrier that can make heavy use of the Plasma MRMs, ASRAAMs, AGMs, and so on; a Chrysostom crossed with a Dominion or something.

Ed2: additional weapons feedback;

There are two weapons that stand out to me in the MVS lineup more than anything recently - the medium Revolver Cannon and the Type 56 Kinetic Missile. Why these two, when there are so many others?

Med. Revolver Cannon - these things have such a good balance of range, consistent damage/accuracy, and what feels like a relatively low OP cost for what they do, that they almost feel overpowered, or at the very least a very consistent and obvious medium ballistic slot pick. I mount a rack of four on the medium slots of all my dominions for shield pressure, and they just methodically chew up anything they encounter. Perhaps make them 10-11 OP? They reload fast enough that the ROF reduction from MVS Targeting means they have essentially no downtime, so their limited ammunition just... isn't a limit. I could see it being more of a problem on ships with faster fire rates (esp. with stuff like the Hammerhead's ballistic feed system) but otherwise it really isn't a drawback in my experience.

Type 56 Kinetic Missile - conversly, these things just feel so bad to use. They might as well be unguided, and in fact would probably be better if they were, because they seem to consistently overcorrect their homing and with their awful guidance this means they feel like they miss their intended target nine times out of ten, especially if they're in an off-center mount (for instance if you want to use a pair of them on the Tzaphkiel Prototype for antishield purposes). Honestly either make them unguided or review their guidance/homing type and overall agility.

A side-mention goes to the Armourhunter cannons, which have the exact same projectile colour as revolver cannons. This is super minor, but they might look a little better with red/orange/yellow shots to match the HE damage type and anti-armour role, whilst keeping revolver cannon shots blue for kinetic/anti-shield role.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 10:58:49 PM by Arcalane »
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sevhern

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.58
« Reply #127 on: October 20, 2022, 09:25:44 PM »

I love the ships but have a lot of issues with the weapons. For example Razorwind and AGM-295 just don't fire.
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darkwarrior1000

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.58
« Reply #128 on: October 22, 2022, 08:13:12 PM »

just a heads up about the asciilasher; it's set to have shock repeaters on but the slots for them are ballistics. sure, they have them on in the fight and all but if you strip them you can't get them back on.
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Unit9461

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.57
« Reply #129 on: November 11, 2022, 11:40:01 AM »

I like the music, but it feels a bit too loud?

Not only that, but it stops and starts rather noticeably. All of the vanilla faction music loops seamlessly, whereas the MVS market music does not. The effect is rather jarring.

This isn't to say the music itself is bad, but rather badly used. The market music should be unobtrusive and loop nicely, because it's going to be what the player listens to whilst using the Fleet, Refit, and Market menus at any MVS-owned installation.

Ed: Musical gripes aside, I'm liking the rest of the faction so far. The ship designs look unique without looking too out of place, as do the weapons, and I think the "reverse-engineered/redesigned & overhauled hull" is a neat concept too. I think my only complaint thusfar is that the faction's markets seem to be a little lacking in faction weapons and occasionally ship variance. It seems very hard to pick up any of the large-mount equipment in particular, aside from a small handful of items, and faction-specific production output seems very low compared to other factions; I mostly see "common" equipment at the MVS docks.

Also also the techprint only has most of the hulls/weapons/fighters, not all of them. I estimate around half the faction's large weapons are missing from the print, along with all of the large hulls. Can we either get a rarer "high end" print at some point, or get more stuff added to the main print, so we can more easily build our own equipment? I see a fair chunk of items are tagged as rare_bp in ths csvs, which makes them rarer and rarer the more stuff you add to the game and all.

After getting some more playtime in, I think what MVS could do with is... well, two things. For one, a slow and dependable heavy cruiser or capital that can make heavy use of the railcannon and iapetus drivers, and a fleet missile carrier that can make heavy use of the Plasma MRMs, ASRAAMs, AGMs, and so on; a Chrysostom crossed with a Dominion or something.

Ed2: additional weapons feedback;

There are two weapons that stand out to me in the MVS lineup more than anything recently - the medium Revolver Cannon and the Type 56 Kinetic Missile. Why these two, when there are so many others?

Med. Revolver Cannon - these things have such a good balance of range, consistent damage/accuracy, and what feels like a relatively low OP cost for what they do, that they almost feel overpowered, or at the very least a very consistent and obvious medium ballistic slot pick. I mount a rack of four on the medium slots of all my dominions for shield pressure, and they just methodically chew up anything they encounter. Perhaps make them 10-11 OP? They reload fast enough that the ROF reduction from MVS Targeting means they have essentially no downtime, so their limited ammunition just... isn't a limit. I could see it being more of a problem on ships with faster fire rates (esp. with stuff like the Hammerhead's ballistic feed system) but otherwise it really isn't a drawback in my experience.

Type 56 Kinetic Missile - conversly, these things just feel so bad to use. They might as well be unguided, and in fact would probably be better if they were, because they seem to consistently overcorrect their homing and with their awful guidance this means they feel like they miss their intended target nine times out of ten, especially if they're in an off-center mount (for instance if you want to use a pair of them on the Tzaphkiel Prototype for antishield purposes). Honestly either make them unguided or review their guidance/homing type and overall agility.

A side-mention goes to the Armourhunter cannons, which have the exact same projectile colour as revolver cannons. This is super minor, but they might look a little better with red/orange/yellow shots to match the HE damage type and anti-armour role, whilst keeping revolver cannon shots blue for kinetic/anti-shield role.
Thanks for the feedback, I'll see what I can do about the music issues.
I've fixed the Type 56 tracking errors, they should work better in the next update.
I'll consider tuning down the revolver cannons, as well.
I should pay more attention to the old Armorhunter, thank you for reminding me!
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vok3

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.58
« Reply #130 on: November 11, 2022, 12:55:24 PM »

Dragonhunter is one of my favorite capital ships. 

And yes, the music is a little loud.  Good music though.
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Killian

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.57
« Reply #131 on: November 16, 2022, 10:08:55 PM »

Thanks for the feedback, I'll see what I can do about the music issues.
I've fixed the Type 56 tracking errors, they should work better in the next update.
I'll consider tuning down the revolver cannons, as well.
I should pay more attention to the old Armorhunter, thank you for reminding me!

np! I really dig the faction aesthetic and how it fits in well alongside vanilla ships whilst also being distinctive, and am curious to see where things go.

I also sent you a PM about an MVS-related project I was working on, but I can't review the message I sent due to a database error or something. If you sent a response then I guess the forum ate it, or more likely it never got to you to begin with if the forum's spitting errors at me when I try to check my sent messages.

Long story short, I've hacked together a custom missileboat Dominion complete with its own unique ship system and variants. If you'd like, I can try to pass you the files so it can be added as a custom bounty or something? It has a modified hull (based on the baseline Dominion with elements from the Excalibur spliced in) with unique engine flares, a custom system, and modified stats; fighter capacity is reduced in exchange for two large missile hardpoints (which visually replace the small hangar bays on the front; originally I wanted to do a series of integrated torpedo-tube style openings along the front like the Chrysostom's but I wasn't having much luck with editing the sprites), and a couple of the turret slot types are also adjusted. The custom Itano Overdrive system massively increases missile weapon performance (speed, acceleration, tracking/maneuverability, range, firerate, and ammo regen) at the cost of disabling your shields and rapidly generating hardflux (you get about 10s of operation depending on skills).

If not I'll just keep it to myself as a little experimental project, or I might - if you're okay with it - release it as a mini-addon that requires MVS. It's pretty powerful even after a couple of nerfs, though I really enjoy the way the overdrive system allows you to be extremely aggressive at the cost of making yourself vulnerable to return fire and emptying your ammo bins: if anything survives the onslaught, you'll be wide open to a counter attack. I wanted to make it so that if you let the system run to max flux it'll overload the ship and stun you, but sadly it just fails-safe at the moment and shuts itself off.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2022, 12:12:45 AM by Arcalane »
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Agalyon

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.59
« Reply #132 on: November 24, 2022, 08:54:44 PM »

Hey, I've noticed an issue with the Chrysostom (which has an amazing sprite by the way, it reminds me of a Thunderbolt from Battlezone.) Its ship system is massively lowering missile damage instead of increasing it. I think whats happening is missiles are doing 0.1x damage instead of 1.1x as listed on the tooltip.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2022, 02:29:46 AM by Agalyon »
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Unit9461

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.59
« Reply #133 on: November 25, 2022, 11:24:34 AM »

Hey, I've noticed an issue with the Chrysostom (which has an amazing sprite by the way, it reminds me of a Thunderbolt from Battlezone.) Its ship system is massively lowering missile damage instead of increasing it. I think whats happening is missiles are doing 0.1x damage instead of 1.1x as listed on the tooltip.
Ah, I'll try to fix that and push a hotfix as soon as I can.
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Unit9461

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Re: Machina Void Shipyards v. 0.59
« Reply #134 on: November 25, 2022, 07:16:23 PM »

Hey, I've noticed an issue with the Chrysostom (which has an amazing sprite by the way, it reminds me of a Thunderbolt from Battlezone.) Its ship system is massively lowering missile damage instead of increasing it. I think whats happening is missiles are doing 0.1x damage instead of 1.1x as listed on the tooltip.
Should be fixed, also updated the Virtue sprite in the meantime
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