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Author Topic: Unforgettable talents  (Read 1545 times)

bobucles

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Unforgettable talents
« on: April 19, 2021, 06:05:45 AM »

I understand the main reason behind permanently locking talents. If you lose the skill, you should lose the bonuses with the skill. Some skills give persistent bonuses, leading to a potential exploit of losing the skill but keeping the bonus. Valid reasons for sure. But is there a better way of handling this? Can the talents be tweaked in such a way that unlearning them is no longer a permanent issue?

Officer management is an easy talent to unlearn, 0.9 already had a setup for going over officer cap. You lose the ability to assign 2 officers, so just don't let the player assign them. EZPZ. The two last officers might be unequipped "at random" or maybe all officers get unequipped for the player to deal with. Unlearning talents is a rare event so that's not too inconvenient.

Special modifications is a bit more tricky. It allows extra caps and vents on a ship, in addition to baking in a bonus S-mod. If the player loses the talent, what kind of penalty makes sense? Maybe the ships get "too complex" and can no longer get fixed. They can't restore CR until they're downgraded to pre-talent spec. It's not a hard lock but remains a firm one, denying the ability to use super ships in a stern way.

Officer training is the HARD one. Officers are allowed a bonus level, with associated +1 skill and +1 elite skill. If the player unlearns the talent, what to do? Do officers suddenly lose their levels and have to be reset? That'd be annoying. Do officers start getting "unruly" that their skills are too good for the player? Will the player have to delete all their elite officers and start from scratch? That'd be a huge setback and way worse than the simple loss of talent. It may be better to remove officer training entirely.

What could officer training be replaced with? A talent that boosts mercenary play would fit in pretty well. Officer management gives permanent officers, while Mercenary management gives better options for hiring mercs. Unfortunately both talents would be pretty similar and might need more to distinguish them. The loss of +1 level talent isn't a big deal. A story point option could help, or high level officers might be one of those rare loots in the void.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 06:17:23 AM by bobucles »
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Megas

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Re: Unforgettable talents
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2021, 06:43:40 AM »

Leadership 4 is the big one.  No way to get Ground Operations without locking the player into Leadership.

This is why I take Automated Ships, even though I much prefer Special Modifications.  Spec. Mods make some flagships noticeably better, not to mention the rest of the fleet to a lesser extent.  (That said, watching Radiant slaughter things is fun.)

The only reason to remove Spec Mods is envy (from those who take Auto Ships just to avoid locking skills for full respec).

Quote
Officer management is an easy talent to unlearn, 0.9 already had a setup for going over officer cap. You lose the ability to assign 2 officers, so just don't let the player assign them. EZPZ. The two last officers might be unequipped "at random" or maybe all officers get unequipped for the player to deal with. Unlearning talents is a rare event so that's not too inconvenient.
Yes.  Why can player unlearn Colony Management (same deal, but with colonies instead of officers), but not this?

If player did not want to use cores, but wanted Industrial Planning to meet demands, he can game the system by getting Colony Management first, install admins, unlearn it, then get Industrial Planning for five worlds with IP.  Third admin cannot be moved, but is not removed; kind of like a sticky Alpha.

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Officer training is the HARD one. Officers are allowed a bonus level, with associated +1 skill and +1 elite skill. If the player unlearns the talent, what to do? Do officers suddenly lose their levels and have to be reset? That'd be annoying. Do officers start getting "unruly" that their skills are too good for the player? Will the player have to delete all their elite officers and start from scratch? That'd be a huge setback and way worse than the simple loss of talent. It may be better to remove officer training entirely.
The idea may simple enough.  All level 6 officers lose a level and a skill is removed.  Maybe not be the one the player wants, but too bad.  However, that might hurt level 6 and 7 officers found from derelicts.

As for replacement for higher level, maybe give officers some buff like more damage or ECM.  It is not like player will install them on a tanker or passenger liner.
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TaLaR

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Re: Unforgettable talents
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2021, 06:50:08 AM »

The idea may simple enough.  All level 6 officers lose a level and a skill is removed.  Maybe not be the one the player wants, but too bad.  However, that might hurt level 6 and 7 officers found from derelicts.

- Officers need to have max level stat (5,6 or 7). So that base 5 + 1 from skill is not same thing as base 6 officer.
- We should be able to respec officers. Found level 6/7 officers with random and usually bad combo of skills/personality are aggravating.
- Skill removal from loss of L4R should be controlled (pick skill to unlearn, can't put officer back into a ship until you do)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 06:55:18 AM by TaLaR »
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bobucles

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Re: Unforgettable talents
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2021, 07:12:39 AM »

- Officers need to have max level stat (5,6 or 7). So that base 5 + 1 from skill is not same thing as base 6 officer.
- We should be able to respec officers. Found level 6/7 officers with random and usually bad combo of skills/personality are aggravating.
- Skill removal from loss of L4R should be controlled (pick skill to unlearn, can't put officer back into a ship until you do)
I'm okay with not respeccing officers. The galaxy is big enough for the player to find new officers and try new things. They're important but they're not life choices.
If the player can pick any skill to unlearn, then they gain a rather janky way of completely respeccing their officers. Level up, level down, level up, level down, it's kinda messy and gross.

IMO the +1lvl talent should be removed entirely. It's too permanent, for a talent tree filled with temporary options. Even the ship upgrades can be mostly reset, (3 s-mod ships can go into a parking zone until the player respecs). There are other ways to introduce a +1lvl bonus. For example, a player might assign their "second in command" as an officer. It's a nice lore friendly way to get +1lvl for that one special dude. Other strong officers might be found in cryo pods or personally upgraded with story points. A mixture of strong and weak officers gives the player early choices while teasing that next rare drop.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 07:16:40 AM by bobucles »
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Megas

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Re: Unforgettable talents
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2021, 07:37:21 AM »

I just want to be able to reach Ground Operations without locking my character in Leadership.  The raid bonuses are nice when I want to raid for blueprints (or more supplies or drugs) late in the game.  One of the Leadership 4 choices needs to be non-permanent, like Automated Ships is for Technology.
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ubuntufreakdragon

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Re: Unforgettable talents
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2021, 12:02:58 PM »

Officer training idea:
you can add a temporary skill to all officers, that is switchable like for cores, on level up there is a higher chance to be offered the temporary skill.
On re spec officers just loose the extra temp skill.

On better tech:
extra vents and caps can just be removed for any ship you add to the fleet, so only Smods are an issue,
I think there should be a small upkeep penalty.

More officers doesn't need to be permanent anyway, vanilla can handle inactive officers.
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TaLaR

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Re: Unforgettable talents
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2021, 01:32:05 PM »

Officer training idea:
you can add a temporary skill to all officers, that is switchable like for cores, on level up there is a higher chance to be offered the temporary skill.
On re spec officers just loose the extra temp skill.

Yeah, I like this idea.

On better tech:
extra vents and caps can just be removed for any ship you add to the fleet, so only Smods are an issue,
I think there should be a small upkeep penalty.

Small upkeep penalty is too little.
Unless I use ships which really need extra caps/vents (imo, only player piloted Afflictor is sufficient justification), I'd just make some triple s-mod ships and switch to AI ships skill, to benefit from both.
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ubuntufreakdragon

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Re: Unforgettable talents
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2021, 02:42:25 PM »

3smod Another simple idea the ship just looses op in the price of the cheapest of the 3 smods if you don't have the skill.
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TaLaR

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Re: Unforgettable talents
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2021, 03:42:13 PM »

3smod Another simple idea the ship just looses op in the price of the cheapest of the 3 smods if you don't have the skill.

Yep, this works. Would keep 3 s-mod ships without Special Modifications skill usable.

Though we probably still need CR or other stat penalty for having loadout that uses more OP than is available (or more vents/caps than available), otherwise I'd just setup ships once and never change them again after respec.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 03:58:33 PM by TaLaR »
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ubuntufreakdragon

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Re: Unforgettable talents
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2021, 04:17:42 PM »

if the op are spent on vents or caps just drop them, so it's only on a ship where all op are spent on equipment and mods, every overspend op -200 capacity and -10 dissipation.
So 1 vent and 1 cap malus.

btw. there should be 17 skill points as 52/3=17.33>15
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 04:29:28 PM by ubuntufreakdragon »
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bobucles

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Re: Unforgettable talents
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2021, 05:19:02 PM »

3smod Another simple idea the ship just looses op in the price of the cheapest of the 3 smods if you don't have the skill.
Don't forget that the fleet would still require refitting after dropping the talent. How much would be automatic, and how much would require player intervention? Ship refitting can be pretty dangerous in deep space, since it costs CR. Of course it's not as dangerous as having all your officers suddenly turn invalid, but it's a gameplay thing to consider.

oooh_senpai

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Re: Unforgettable talents
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2021, 05:28:04 PM »

3smod Another simple idea the ship just looses op in the price of the cheapest of the 3 smods if you don't have the skill.
Don't forget that the fleet would still require refitting after dropping the talent. How much would be automatic, and how much would require player intervention? Ship refitting can be pretty dangerous in deep space, since it costs CR. Of course it's not as dangerous as having all your officers suddenly turn invalid, but it's a gameplay thing to consider.
Just add another be_careful pop-up when trying to respec these skills, so player won't forget to reassign officers after or dock before choosing another skills. Anyway it will be better than not having an option to respec some skills at all.
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KDR_11k

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Re: Unforgettable talents
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2021, 02:34:22 AM »

If you really want to be a jerk make too many s-mods or vents/caps cause the effect of Ill-Advised Modifications (or just penalize max CR) until the player re-learns the relevant skill. Colonies already run on a soft cap, you just get a penalty for too many of them rather than a hard lockout. I think that should apply to too many officers and administrators too.

Of course that won't work with Officer Training either. Can't penalize the player for going over limits the game will readily let them go over (some dropped officers can even have more than two elite skills).
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Megas

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Re: Unforgettable talents
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2021, 06:23:51 AM »

Can the player loot 3 s-mod ships anywhere?  If not, make three s-mod ships and/or beyond max cap/vents remove max CR like Automated Ships do for automated ships if player does not have Spec. Mods for those special mod ships.
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TaLaR

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Re: Unforgettable talents
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2021, 06:58:14 AM »

The best solution in this thread is to subtract OP cost of cheapest of 3 s-mods from max OP + strong CR penalty for over the limit OP/Vents/Caps (extra Vents/Caps could also be just stripped instantly, without refit CR loss).
This way 3 s-mod ship don't have to be stored indefinitely until you restore Special Modifications skill, but do not give any advantages without skill.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2021, 06:59:47 AM by TaLaR »
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