Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: Low tech is being left behind!  (Read 6140 times)

tseikk1

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Low tech is being left behind!
« on: April 17, 2021, 09:00:43 AM »

We've had a lot of time to play out 0.95a, test new skills, ships, weapons etc. Vast majority of fleets I now see on the forums, reddit, and discord are mostly high tech, with maybe some mid-tech mixed in. This is despite low tech getting some nice buffs in form of enforcer armor and onslaught integrated ballistics. I think there are two reasons for this:
1. the new skill system does not favour low tech. Energy weapons mastery and wolfpack tactics are two very strong skills that low tech cannot utilize in almost any way. Low tech frigate options are quite bad, in that its best ship is the lasher, which is basically only good in the early game, and its second best is the worst phase ship in the game. Oh and it also has kites I guess?
2. The ship lineup of low tech feels lacking in general. They are meant to be the dakka/missile heavy tech, but they don't even have a dedicated missile ship (no the buffalo mk2 doesnt count) OR a non-lasher user of accelerated ammo feeder.

While both high and mid tech work well on their own, low tech feels like it DESPERATELY needs to borrow stuff from mid tech (gryphon, hammerhead, monitor/centurion/brawler) in order to function. What can be done? Well I think low tech needs a couple new ships to fill gaps in its roster:
A proper, flexible, 6-8DP attack frigate with accelerated ammo feeder that can be overloaded to make it a bully of smaller frigates/light destroyers or equipped with pd/long range weapons to provide cover for easily flankable low tech heavy hitters.
A dedicated missile destroyer. 10-12 DP range, some medium/small composite slots (maybe even a large missile? might be too OP), missile autoforge ship system. low speed and shields, meant to be protected by others but offering finishing power for pure low tech fleets.

While we're at it, although it's not like high tech needs any buffs, why not give it a destroyer-size carrier with interceptor-benefiting ship system as well :)
Logged

Amoebka

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1329
    • View Profile
Re: Low tech is being left behind!
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2021, 09:38:49 AM »

You aren't meant to run "exclusively high/mid/low tech" fleets, and there's no point balancing the game around allowing this. If individual ships struggle - they can get buffed individually.
Logged

Igncom1

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1496
    • View Profile
Re: Low tech is being left behind!
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2021, 10:04:04 AM »

Small low tech ships can kinda suffer where armour and flux capacity just isn't high enough to survive the teleporting super speedy death dealers from high-tech. But large low tech ships are death dealing savages who require powerful missiles and HE artillery to effectively put down.

And of course many civilian ships are low tech, so they are the back bone of the economy in many cases  8)
Logged
Sunders are the best ship in the game.

Sandor057

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 146
    • View Profile
Re: Low tech is being left behind!
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2021, 10:25:20 AM »

Low tech frigates and destroyers are quite lackluster, that much is true, but cruisers and capitals is an entirely different matter.

Dominators have great dakka potential and missile versatility. You can use annihilator pods to flood whatever's in front of you in missiles, or have typhoon launchers at the ready for the moment when you break the opponent's shields. More importantly, it has the staying power to deliver the payloads.

Not to mention the Legion (both kinds) which IS the missile platform. You can outfit it with as many launchers as you want AND with bomber wings to launch more missiles on your foes.

Add EMR and missile spec officers to both to increase the damage potential. That's about it.

In smaller sizes you either struggle, or mix and match with other tech groups as Ludd intended.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7206
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Low tech is being left behind!
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2021, 11:20:34 AM »

I am currently playing a "low tech roleplay" run with just low tech ships (and a few drams. That counts). I would not characterize low tech as the dakka tech or the missile specialist tech: thats midtech. Low tech is toughness and consistent missiles across every ship. Its workable without any additions from other tech levels. Sure it would be better with some other ships mixed in, but thats mainly due to those ships being excellent. The main thing that low tech lacks is a hunter frigate that can compete with any fast flanker. Otoh, it has good carrier options to deal with them, so its not all lost.

For performance: I'm still in the midgame, but 4 enforcers, 4 condors, 4 lashers, 4 shepherds can handle ~2-capital ~225k bounties.

All of the following ship reviews are WITHOUT Safety Overides: I know its good for low tech, but its a bit busted atm.

Frigates:
Lashers are workable but subpar. With AAF they have decent firepower, but between the front shield and low speed they are food for other frigates. They make for good escorts to destroyers though: the destroyers keep them safe from other frigates, and the Lashers add a lot of missile and gun firepower/DP. Comparing their base stats to Centurions is not very flattering though... could probably use an armor boost to go along with low tech = endurance.

Shepherds are excellent. A+ tier exploration and logistics vessels that have both Salvage Gantry and Survey equipment built in. In combat they are acceptable against early and even mid level (~200k bounties) threats due to their drones acting as PD screens on the initial charge and as distractions, combined with the ships tiny DP cost. I tend to install unstable injector so they can run, though it does lower the replacement rate.

I have not seriously tried incorporating Hounds or Cerberi. I should incorporate some Gremlins. I forgot about them, but they are excellent distraction ships (all the distraction of the larger phase ships, none of the ability to attack, much cheaper).

Destroyers:

The new enforcers are excellent, on par with Hammerhead and Sunders. Their gun firepower is low, but acceptable now that they get flux boosts from T4L, and they have good missile firepower. They also just refuse to die: 1290 armor with HA and AWM for 9 DP. An Enforcer with an officer can tangle with an officered capital and absorb all of its firepower for a good amount of time. Long enough for the other 3 enforcers with an eliminate order to close in to drive up flux, and then thats a dead capital.

Condors are fine. They remain unchanged from last patch; the main difference is that they no longer have to compete with Drovers which were crazy good. Now these are decent budget carriers: they bring wings and missiles for cheap (10DP). I am running 2 with Thunders to help against frigates and give EMP support, and 2 with bombers (1 khopesh, 1 piranha). Roughly the same missiles/DP concentration as Enforcers, lashers, and dominators, but backed up by fast racks: this makes them excellent at either salamander support or harpooning overloaded enemies.

Cruisers:
Dominators are good. They bring large ballistics for longer range and better armor penetration without losing DPS like happens with HVD/Mauler. They have somewhat better missiles/DP ratio than Enforcers (~3m/25 instead of 3m/27), but only take 1 officer to fill out those missiles instead of 3. While they are significantly tougher than an individual enforcer, they are not as tough as 3 enforcers (27 DP), nor do they have the same level of total firepower. In effect they are trading out toughness and tactical flexibility for (much) longer range and better force concentration (all cruisers do this). The main weakness is that Dominators have most of their offensive ability locked into their front hardpoints, lowish maneuverability, and a wide open stern: they are bad against frigates. Frigates are monsters this patch, so that lowers Dominators effective value.

Moras are good. They maintain the same missiles/DP as Condors and are a little behind enforcers and dominators. Compared to 2 Condors, they give up 1 deck, but save an officer, and bring crazy levels of toughness. Instead of being fragile carriers in need of protection, Moras are tough enough that you want the enemy to hit them as hard as they can, wasting their firepower doing nothing while the rest of your ships shoot. Especially for bombers, 3 wings striking together is potentially better than 4 wings in 2 waves of 2, so losing the deck is not as bad as it sounds.

Capitals:
Onslaughts are excellent when built correctly. Their missile firepower is at Condor/Mora levels instead of Dominators (4m/40), but its turreted letting it use dumbfire missiles very well. Their armor is the best in the game, though proportionally not that much more than a Dominator. They get even more range, the excellent TPCs, and they have a very wide effective firing arc with their guns (when built correctly) that removes the Dominator's downside of having fixed forward firepower. They have absolute oodles of free OP, so can comfortably use elite large ballistics, many hullmods, etc. A good officered Onslaught should be able to duel and win against an Alpha Core Radiant 1v1 and hold off 2 at the same time.

Legions are also excellent: They lose fighter concentration again (down to 1/10DP), but add heavy cruiser long range gunfire (plenty of flux for 2 large ballistics) and more missiles per DP (5m/40, slightly better than a Dominator). Think of them as a mora and a Dominator glued together, only for 40 DP instead of 45, longer range, an extra fighter bay, and only needing 1 officer. The downside is that they have the most vulnerable rear of any ship and are proportionally less tough than the two cruisers would be.

Dominators, Legions, and Onslaughts have a massive weakness (their rear) that the player can take advantage of to quickly pop them with fast strikers or phase ships. But the AI is not the player! As long as you protect their rear via orders, fighter commands, escorts, etc etc then this is not an issue.
Logged

IonDragonX

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 816
    • View Profile
Re: Low tech is being left behind!
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2021, 11:24:11 AM »

Someone had a suggestion in another thread that would kill two birds with one stone:
* Make Safety Overrides worse for High Tech ships. Like +75% venting & move speed instead of the normal +100%
* Make SO even better for Low Tech ships. Like factor of 2 PPT & CR decline instead of the normal 3; and less of a range malus than normal.
Logged

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2794
    • View Profile
Re: Low tech is being left behind!
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2021, 11:35:41 AM »

Eeh, this would just make Low Tech dedicated SO boats. SO shouldn't be the only way to use low tech.
Logged

Amoebka

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1329
    • View Profile
Re: Low tech is being left behind!
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2021, 11:40:44 AM »

I would imagine pure low-tech will struggle badly in the late game.

High-tech isn't so dominant because ships are generally better at everything, they are better specifically at dealing with what the current lategame meta throws at you. Past a certain point, you are always outnumbered AND enemy ships now have similar or superior individual strength to yours (s-mods, officer spam). The only way to win is to create local advantages, and you need to be faster to do that. In more even fights, low-tech is arguably superior to high-tech and midline, because you have much lower chances of accidental ship losses. It's just that the game doesn't give you fair fights.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7206
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Low tech is being left behind!
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2021, 11:50:08 AM »

I would imagine pure low-tech will struggle badly in the late game.

High-tech isn't so dominant because ships are generally better at everything, they are better specifically at dealing with what the current lategame meta throws at you. Past a certain point, you are always outnumbered AND enemy ships now have similar or superior individual strength to yours (s-mods, officer spam). The only way to win is to create local advantages, and you need to be faster to do that. In more even fights, low-tech is arguably superior to high-tech and midline, because you have much lower chances of accidental ship losses. It's just that the game doesn't give you fair fights.

Could be, I have not yet reached that point yet with my pure low tech build. The other way to secure local advantage is with missiles, which all low tech ships have: ECCM boosted harpoons and sabots cover for a multitude of sins. I do miss my Gryphon's something fierce.
Logged

Daynen

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Low tech is being left behind!
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2021, 12:47:00 PM »

"Low tech struggles" "non-lasher Ammo feeder" "No good missile boats"

Hang on... and NO ONE mentions the Atlas MkII... which can be BOTH a missile ship AND a dakka machine... AT THE SAME TIME.  I swear I'mma slap y'all.  Half the DP of a legion, two large missiles, two large ballistics, various places for PD weapons, an ammo feeder AND generous fuel, crew and cargo space to double as logistics...build in an augmented burn drive and get it some maneuverability and its biggest drawbacks are solved.  HOW is there not more love for this ship?

Unless...

Maybe folks just don't want to ADMIT they love it?  :-X
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7206
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Low tech is being left behind!
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2021, 12:51:17 PM »

I would classify the Atlas Mk II as "Pirate", not low tech. Its a decent light ship with a bit more firepower than the average cruiser in offense while being much weaker on defense. Looking at the stats, in defense its like a slow, giant falcon with worse shields - probably better defense than Hammerheads/Sunders, but worse than Enforcers.
Logged

ANGRYABOUTELVES

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 592
  • AE ALTADOON GHARTOK PADHOME
    • View Profile
Re: Low tech is being left behind!
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2021, 02:59:48 AM »

Going forward, officered frigates are going to be a critical part of any fleet strategy, that much is clear. Low tech has 1 (one) good combat frigate, the Lasher, and it's merely acceptable. I understand that monotech fleets are not the intended way to play the game, but the absolute dearth of options for low-tech style frigates severely limits the range of fleet styles. If I want my frigates to be bulky distractions, I'm far better off going with Centurions, Monitors, or Omens. If I want my frigates to be fast killers, I can choose from the Tempest, Hyperion, Afflictor, Shade, or Wolf. The Lasher barely rates as a bulky anti-fighter option, and even then almost any of the aformentioned options would be better. A Lasher buff and one or two more military grade low-tech frigates would go a long way. Maybe a really fat 8 DP frigate with Damper Field for escort duty?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 03:07:22 AM by ANGRYABOUTELVES »
Logged

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4139
    • View Profile
Re: Low tech is being left behind!
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2021, 03:16:51 AM »

Centurion and Brawler (not anymore, boo! And why is it 6 DP now? Omen is 5!) is basically a low-tech frigate (slow, armoured) in midline grab. But yeah, for "proper" low-tech frigates, there's only Lasher and not worth it past early game Kite. Shepherd I consider not worth the DP later on. I imagine the new heavy frigate Alex's making isn't going to be very good, unless it comes with some strong options, like Centurion's Damper Field.

Maethendias

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
  • Esteemed Warlord
    • View Profile
Re: Low tech is being left behind!
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2021, 03:23:47 AM »

Someone had a suggestion in another thread that would kill two birds with one stone:
* Make Safety Overrides worse for High Tech ships. Like +75% venting & move speed instead of the normal +100%
* Make SO even better for Low Tech ships. Like factor of 2 PPT & CR decline instead of the normal 3; and less of a range malus than normal.

that makes 0 sense... why would the line of ships whos main strengths are speed and manouverability and flux efficiency.... be worse at those things
Logged

Satirical

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: Low tech is being left behind!
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2021, 03:42:54 AM »

lost 5000 men taking out the [SPOILERS] with only XIV dominators enforcers and moras and 3 XIV onslaughts it was a very immersive low tech experience

no good kiting frigate for low tech made it an absolute meatgrinder but i guess next time i can throw in a kite(h) or two to KITE one of them away hahaha also i brought 40/30 ships because i knew some were gonna die  >:( ;D
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 03:50:35 AM by Satirical »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3