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Starsector 0.95a is out! (03/26/21); Blog post: Of Slipstreams and Sensor Ghosts (09/24/21)

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Author Topic: LRM reform  (Read 888 times)

rokenx2

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LRM reform
« on: April 16, 2021, 11:28:23 AM »

i love the idea of LRM's in this game but for 10 op 3 sloooowww missiles is... quite potato i cant justify using them ever my suggestion would be... have lrm sets..... 5/10/15/20 ...sorta thing (like battletech) add a lot more ammo too them or.. perhaps make it so you can add OP cost to the weapon to increase ammo... that would be interesting ..... but with how slow and weak the missiles are..... its really a pointless weapon at least this why they could be properly massed




Edit: yah i realize they are 7 now but im gunna keep it in in defense of the post that reminded me ^^
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 12:13:12 PM by rokenx2 »
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Retry

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Re: LRM reform
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2021, 11:51:49 AM »

Pilums are only 7 OP, not 10...
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: LRM reform
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2021, 12:07:07 PM »

Also, Starsector combat is currently balanced around ships having to close with one another and a priority on maneuver as a tactical concern. Making very-long-range weapons too common and effectual would make maneuver irrelevant and turn combat into a slideshow of "Who Has More Missiles?" Small LRMs are especially vulnerable to becoming a spam-happy win button, because it's much easier to hit PD saturation/overwhelm shields with small missile mounts.

Pilums are weapons you deploy to harass your enemy (by occupying PD, scoring rare lucky hits, and generally cluttering the battlespace), not kill your enemy. At 7OP, they're not bad; you're rarely going to score hits, but 500 HE damage when you do is pretty impressive, and spraying a ship with ion pulser fire in the middle of an LRM cloud is a good way to see that ship evaporate.

That said, I think there are a lot of ways to do more compelling LRMs, which is why I tend to design LRMs that hit more often for less impressive damage. One of my favorites currently is a huge AoE fragmentation warhead with a small on-hit HE explosion, and better engine stats so they actually hit more often (and sometimes take out two or three fighters at a time). Even given the loose design constraints of balanced LRMs (medium or large mounts, and a sliding scale of low damage and high hit rate, or high damage and a low hit rate), there's a decently large possibility space.

So vanilla could probably use another LRM option, yeah; but I doubt making LRMs into reliable damage-dealers would improve the game.
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rokenx2

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Re: LRM reform
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2021, 12:09:50 PM »

aye they are only 7 sorry brain fart ... i normally expect a medium slot to take 10 by default as so many do so forgot =P .... but still a medium slot for 3 missiles every once in a while that move so slow.... and are so easy to kill



how about adding a weak shield to them to ensure they hit more often? i always thought the idea of a missile that had a weak shield to be cool in theory.. or  perhaps have a missile boat ship thats system adds a weak shield to missiles fired from it... that would be kinda bad ass....
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 12:11:25 PM by rokenx2 »
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ChaseBears

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Re: LRM reform
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2021, 12:10:22 PM »

what's really hurting LRMs right now is the proliferation of ships who they are zero danger to because they are too fast. Phase ships and spoiler ships and plasma drives.   Even with ECCM pilums are not fast enough to ever hit.  I think a mild baseline speed buff is necessary.
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Megas

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Re: LRM reform
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2021, 12:50:50 PM »

The focus on short-ranged combat and lack of useful long-range options is one of Starsector's biggest weaknesses.  There needs to be more guns that are effective more than a screen away.
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TaLaR

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Re: LRM reform
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2021, 01:40:05 PM »

If not a more global upgrade, Pilums could at least become compatible with FMR system (make it not only clear cooldown, but also regenerate charges faster).

Pilums were weak in 0.91 and frigate proliferation of 0.95 + officers on most enemy ships made Pilums only weaker.

I'm not saying Pilums needs to be strong, but not being as laughably weak as now would be ok.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 02:02:37 PM by TaLaR »
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Amoebka

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Re: LRM reform
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2021, 01:44:10 PM »

The problem with making pilums fast is you will just shoot them from close up.  :D

I think LRM should be restricted to support, not damage. SWP had a long range missile that did huge area of effect EMP, that would fit nicely with vanilla.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: LRM reform
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2021, 01:46:01 PM »

The focus on short-ranged combat and lack of useful long-range options is one of Starsector's biggest weaknesses.  There needs to be more guns that are effective more than a screen away.
I don't agree with this. Getting shot from offscreen without the visual cues of seeing the ship or counter-play is not fun, and it is also not very engaging for the player who can't see offscreen to use weapons like that. It can work as a boss weapon (or stations) but not on any random ship.
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SafariJohn

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Re: LRM reform
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2021, 05:39:47 PM »

@rokenx2 Try my Pilum mod, it makes them fast but inaccurate: https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10598
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Megas

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Re: LRM reform
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2021, 07:38:25 PM »

The focus on short-ranged combat and lack of useful long-range options is one of Starsector's biggest weaknesses.  There needs to be more guns that are effective more than a screen away.
I don't agree with this. Getting shot from offscreen without the visual cues of seeing the ship or counter-play is not fun, and it is also not very engaging for the player who can't see offscreen to use weapons like that. It can work as a boss weapon (or stations) but not on any random ship.
I thought old Tachyon Lance was fun, and made Paragon scary.  It was also fun putting long range lances on my Paragon and watch it snipe at things across the map (while heavy blasters ate whatever got close).

I also wished Sensors did what they originally did by extending your shot range and not reducing the enemy's.  Guns having no range is no fun, and makes them feel more like knives instead.

The closest thing ships have to long-range weapons is fighters, now that fighters have been implemented as weapons instead of ships.
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KDR_11k

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Re: LRM reform
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2021, 04:04:38 AM »

First thought would be to just make them increase in speed as they travel further so ships are less likely to outrun them forever and they add more pressure when launched from afar into a skirmish.
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Megas

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Re: LRM reform
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2021, 04:06:32 AM »

First thought would be to just make them increase in speed as they travel further so ships are less likely to outrun them forever and they add more pressure when launched from afar into a skirmish.
The last time I tried Pilum spam, the AI cowered even more and ran down the clock further.  Made the fight more frustrating.  Never want to use Pilums as they are again.
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: LRM reform
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2021, 04:00:09 PM »

Inspired by this thread, I took a crack at a faster Pilum by just messing with two values; I set terminal speed to 200 (up from 125) and I set damage to 300 HE (down from 500). If I were being more rigorous in my balancing, I might also reduce missile HP a bit, but I'm trying it like that for now.

You can try this yourself (or, sure, I could package it up if I weren't out in the weeds on two 0.95a updates), and I think it makes them feel a lot better while not really influencing their lethality and effectiveness much in either direction; sure, they penetrate less armor, but they're more likely to hit anything at all, and overall they make combat more challenging.
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rokenx2

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Re: LRM reform
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2021, 06:23:04 PM »

i dont really think they need to be faster  i mean that is one way to approch it but personally id rather see em easier to mass.. cheaper or take a small slot or just plain launch more missiles and have more ammo but i guess thats just me
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