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Author Topic: ECM redesign.  (Read 920 times)

Soda Savvy

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ECM redesign.
« on: April 16, 2021, 10:43:59 AM »

So from what I've gathered, a current issue with ECM is that it's easy for one fleet to just overwhelm the other and in turn mess up the ai, making them not want to press the attack.

What if instead of reducing the weapon ranges, ECM increased the default 'Recoil' state of all applicable weapons.

That way at max range said weapons could still miss, but the closer ships get the less effect it has.

Beam weapons, I don't know about. If you're in ballistic range, lasers aren't going to miss. Maybe a 10% damage reduction to simulate trouble seeking weakpoints.
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Wyvern

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Re: ECM redesign.
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2021, 10:50:00 AM »

The problem i think is ecms all or nothing nature. If the enemy has 80 ecm it doesnt matter if you have 0 or 40 or 60 ecm, its all the same.
Changing what ECM does is one option, but I'd still want this to be addressed, too. Building a fleet for ECM should have value even when your opponent has more. Taking a map node should have value, too. If I control both of the map's sensor arrays, but have zero base ECM, that should still matter even if the enemy fleet has 40 or 60 or 80.

...I don't have a good mathematical suggestion of how to do this, mind you, I just think it should be done.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Thaago

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Re: ECM redesign.
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2021, 11:01:56 AM »

Copying what I wrote in the other thread:

There are a few benefits to having 60 ECM if the enemy has 80 ECM: The capture points will bring the penalty from -20% to -10%, instead of doing nothing, and after killing a few enemy ships their bonus starts to drop instead of staying high the whole fight (either popping enemy ships with missile barrages or hunting down their isolated frigates with interceptor carriers works well). Its not ideal to get out-ECM'd after investing resources, but there is still a point.

The problem i think is ecms all or nothing nature. If the enemy has 80 ecm it doesnt matter if you have 0 or 40 or 60 ecm, its all the same.
Changing what ECM does is one option, but I'd still want this to be addressed, too. Building a fleet for ECM should have value even when your opponent has more. Taking a map node should have value, too. If I control both of the map's sensor arrays, but have zero base ECM, that should still matter even if the enemy fleet has 40 or 60 or 80.

...I don't have a good mathematical suggestion of how to do this, mind you, I just think it should be done.

Numbers here could use tweaking but something to the effect of: 15*[(higher fleet ECM)/(lower fleet ECM)-1]%
Could be interesting. It would still be possible to be overwhelmed by enemy ECM, but instead of them needing 20% more, they would need double to get the full bonus. If the player has 60 ECM, it would take an enemy with 120 ECM to get the full 15% bonus, while an enemy with 80 would have 5% bonus.

However, theres an issue if the player has very low ECM because of 1/x behaviors, where even a small enemy ECM would give them the full bonus. So giving both some padding like:

Range malus = 15*[(higher fleet ECM + 10)/(lower fleet ECM + 10) - 1]%

Would smooth out some of the 1/x behavior. Something like 24:12 ECM early game fight goes from the full bonus to an 8% bonus.

The cons are that its a more complicated formula, but I think there are some pros to using a ratio instead of a subtraction.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: ECM redesign.
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2021, 11:06:10 AM »

I feel like most of the ECM skill numbers (the boost per ship and the officered frigate boost) should be halved. The numbers are too high relative to the sensor node boost IMO.
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Megas

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Re: ECM redesign.
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2021, 12:52:19 PM »

For one release years ago, sensors affected damage.  (Before that, they increased your shot range instead of decreasing the enemy's.)
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Rauschkind

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Re: ECM redesign.
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2021, 01:13:32 PM »


Numbers here could use tweaking but something to the effect of: 15*[(higher fleet ECM)/(lower fleet ECM)-1]%
Could be interesting. It would still be possible to be overwhelmed by enemy ECM, but instead of them needing 20% more, they would need double to get the full bonus. If the player has 60 ECM, it would take an enemy with 120 ECM to get the full 15% bonus, while an enemy with 80 would have 5% bonus.

However, theres an issue if the player has very low ECM because of 1/x behaviors, where even a small enemy ECM would give them the full bonus. So giving both some padding like:

Range malus = 15*[(higher fleet ECM + 10)/(lower fleet ECM + 10) - 1]%

Would smooth out some of the 1/x behavior. Something like 24:12 ECM early game fight goes from the full bonus to an 8% bonus.

The cons are that its a more complicated formula, but I think there are some pros to using a ratio instead of a subtraction.
i think this makes a lot of sense and would be a more fun system.
i dont think it was problematic that the simple solution would give the full bonus at low ecm vs 0 ecm. the cure is very easy: get at least SOME ecm.
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Soda Savvy

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Re: ECM redesign.
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2021, 01:17:09 PM »

I just feel like having it affect recoil state would fit better than the current range method. The range method is causing various ai issues, while having it affect spread would still let one engage at range, just to a lesser degree. One could handwave it away as 'Increasing the fire saturation pattern' or something.

An added bonus would be that it would mean more for frigates, as they have an easier time evading incoming volleys, while larger ships benefit less. Sure, a few rounds might miss that capital ship, but it's already so large and close that it's going to soak most of the incoming fire anyway.

That Wolf or Scarab meanwhile can slip between shots.

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intrinsic_parity

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Re: ECM redesign.
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2021, 01:42:46 PM »

I think it's best to see how the gunnery implants changes affect ECM before going for more drastic changes. Most of those crazy ECM ratings come from the +8 ECM frigates. Removing that aspect of the skill entirely would be my first step.
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