Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]

Author Topic: Trade is brokenly unbalanced  (Read 9936 times)

AcaMetis

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 484
    • View Profile
Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2021, 02:09:35 PM »

Quote
For (6), I'd love to see things beyond rep loss from trading with Pathers/Pirates. Load them up with heavy armaments? They launch a raid, Hegemony investigates where they got all these weapons and surprise... your name comes up.
It's an idea, but it would need some work. For one the only targets that pathers would have (other than player colonies) in vanilla is Agreus (independent, though in a sector that's claimed by the Hegemony) and Culann (Tri-Tachyon), so the targets would be very limited. You'd never end up with a Persean League, Luddic, Diktat or Pirate investigation unless pather cell activity was changed or expanded upon. Only Hegemony (if they care enough to investigate an independent world in their claimed space), independent or Tri-Tachyon.

Second, mechanically pather bases currently have access to infinite materials at all times because of "smugglers" who, frankly, must use Domain-levels of sophisticated teleportation technology to instantly and endlessly supply pather (and pirate) bases with everything they could ever want no matter how many times they are raided, have their spaceport ruined, and so on. Pathers sending supplies that are sold to them to support those bases in order to fuel pather cell activity is a fine idea, but this mechanic would have to be addressed in order to not make the effect fall flat.

Quote
Personally, I vote for option (a), and thats going to come with restrictions and gameplay challenges to overcome: more pirate patrols to sneak by. No access to the black market without contacts or sneaking. Hunter fleets coming after the player. Surprise inspections by main faction patrols once the player gets a reputation as a smuggler... etc. There are lots of ways it could be done.
More patrols wouldn't do anything if those patrols just run away scared from player fleets, since pirate worlds are generally puny and so their patrols are likewise. Not to mention it would turn some sectors into a right mess of pirate patrols flying around and getting murdered/murdering other patrols periodically, free supplies/fuel/metals/ships for the patient player willing to play battlefield vulture. Being forced to grind contacts/Domain-era Sensor Array destruction just to access the black market (fully) would be an enormous pain in the rear, and would likely end up resulting in people feeling that such a grind is "mandatory" in order to, say, be an explorer because where else are you going to dump off all of this food/goods/ore/etc. Hunter fleets are too common as is, they need to be pushed back, not increased. Surprise inspections would just be an annoyance, a periodic loss of rep/supplies that you'd have to compensate for by not doing any of the bar missions or bounties because they're incredibly pathetic payouts for the amount you have to put in to do them. Not to mention the hunter/vengeance fleets which spawn thereafter...

That last point is the crux of this issue, I feel like. People will do drug runs because it's the "best"? Well, why not make any of these new bar missions the best? Or bounty hunting? Or some new part of commissions to make them (more?) worthwhile? Or exploring? Fewer nerf bats to the only thing that's a reasonable money maker, more stepping stones for the myriad of activities which fall to the wayside not because they're "not the best", but because they're outright horrible in most cases.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7224
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2021, 02:22:25 PM »

...

That last point is the crux of this issue, I feel like. People will do drug runs because it's the "best"? Well, why not make any of these new bar missions the best? Or bounty hunting? Or some new part of commissions to make them (more?) worthwhile? Or exploring? Fewer nerf bats to the only thing that's a reasonable money maker, more stepping stones for the myriad of activities which fall to the wayside not because they're "not the best", but because they're outright horrible in most cases.

I think the issue is that, for the most part and with a few exceptions of things that got tweaked to be too low (pirate base bounties come to mind, so do raids that require hundreds of marines), they ARE good ways to make money. Bounty hunting, trade missions, exploring, spy sats, etc etc: most of them pay out just plenty. Take a few missions in the same region, explore the area to recover goods, AI cores, blueprints, survey data, and unique items, come back: thats a few hundred thousand even early game. Going to cross the core anyways? Take a trade mission if one pops up at the bar and get an extra 50k.

As the OP was saying, drug running makes way too much money - hundreds of thousands with a very small fleet right in the second or third run, where only very basic stealth and maybe a story point if everything goes horribly wrong needed. Its not 'the only thing that's a reasonable money maker', its more like a boring exploit.
Logged

Flying Birdy

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2021, 03:20:26 PM »

*SNIP*
That way Pirate fleets will actually be *** off if you avoid paying Pirate tariffs and chase you to collect "Kanta's cut". Also instead of random scans for contraband, it's random scans for hot loot they can extort from you... giving players the option to give up a slice of their cargo in exchange for staying alive and doing so gives you status that can eventually translate into being cleared for trade. Maybe being on a pirate trade mission makes them let you through regardless of your status.

This seems reasonable in theory but it still does not address the issue in practice; the AI needs to be buffed immensely to be able to prevent a player from just working around this nuisance. First of all, not all pirate shortage planets have patrols; many of them are wide open. Second, shortages are also frequent in core faction worlds. Third, shielded cargo holds are a thing and prevent scans. Four, fast fleets full of hounds aren't difficult to salvage or expensive to buy and they can get into any market without difficulty regardless of the mechanics in place.

I agree with you there.

That brings me to another suggestion: there should be serious consequences for buffing pirates by smuggling to them in the form of better defense fleets - including all frigate/destroyer picket fleets specifically for hitting smugglers.

I think one strategy could be to implement the defense fleet in the form of a station at every single pirate colony. This way, if the player is intercepted by a patrol, the enemy fleet will be a patrol and the station. It will also make it far harder during the mid-game to just fly a fleet that outclasses pirate patrols since it's always going to be patrol + station that a player will be up against.

If the player wants to be particularly fast about getting past a patrol, the same docking limitations should be imposed such that a player can not dock if he/she is being chased by a pirate patrol. Finally, ships with shielded cargo hold should be made rarer, or shielded cargo holds could be significantly reduced in effectiveness by the number of d-mods the ships have. This would make it far harder to abuse the smuggling mechanic in the early game. Of course, anything is possible by late game but getting 30 hounds (p)s is at least a challenge in itself and takes some effort.

Another further measure that could "up the difficulty" so to speak in addition to all the measures you suggested is to greatly increase the duration in which a planet will not trade with a player due to in-system hostilities with patrol ships. A major speed brake for smuggling early on to Garnir, for instance, is the annoying little pirate patrols that the player often blows up; Garnir then refuses to let the player trade because of hostilities but that refusal only lasts for days (scales based off on how many ships got destroyed). By increasing the duration of the refusal, the disengage choice now becomes disengage (supplies or ship losses) or attacking the patrol (locked out of the market for three months and thus miss the entire shortage). Under these types of measures, the player has to be really careful about blowing up pesky patrols because attacking them could lock out a market entirely for a really long time.
Logged

Ad Astra

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 263
  • Are Reapers strawberry flavored?
    • View Profile
Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2021, 04:19:21 PM »

I have the solution! Make space heroin cheaper! I'm uh...asking for a uh... friend of mine, yes...
On the other hand making drugs a little bit cheaper could balance the issue with them, the other balance could be that worlds were drugs are allowed shouldn't really be in any short supply of them really (I mean come on pirates would totally have space opium plantations), instead worlds like Chicomoztoc, Sindria and Kazeron should be the big consumers, and the balance with them is that they are always heavily patrolled. Kinda like how third world countries have no shortages of drugs yet first world countries do (trust my experience of lifelong Southamericanism)
Regarding heavy armaments it would be easier to lock them behind underworld contacts (I mean come on you don't sell that kind of stuff in a street market) that way you MIGHT become an arms dealer but not without a bit of time investment, could also carry some relation mallus just like in Nexerelin (found out about this the fun way lol)
Logged
You can park your spaceship anywhere you want if you get along with pirates

bonerstorm

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2021, 04:38:55 PM »

*SNIP*
I think the issue is that, for the most part and with a few exceptions of things that got tweaked to be too low (pirate base bounties come to mind, so do raids that require hundreds of marines), they ARE good ways to make money. Bounty hunting, trade missions, exploring, spy sats, etc etc: most of them pay out just plenty. Take a few missions in the same region, explore the area to recover goods, AI cores, blueprints, survey data, and unique items, come back: thats a few hundred thousand even early game. Going to cross the core anyways? Take a trade mission if one pops up at the bar and get an extra 50k.

As the OP was saying, drug running makes way too much money - hundreds of thousands with a very small fleet right in the second or third run, where only very basic stealth and maybe a story point if everything goes horribly wrong needed. Its not 'the only thing that's a reasonable money maker', its more like a boring exploit.

What you're saying about exploration is only true if you're commissioned. Also true to a much lesser extent with bounties etc. Without commish, you're constantly bleeding money in the early game anytime you go off into the black. And some people - for RP reasons - prefer to remain independent operators.

Also if running drugs is a "boring exploit" then why not just make it less boring?

Running drugs should be wildly profitable in-game because it's wildly profitable IRL. It should also be wildly dangerous in-game because it's wildly dangerous IRL.

There are a lot of us who bought this game because we like to RP trading and smuggling in addition to combat etc. I get that a lot of players don't feel the same way. I get that it's frustrating to them that everything else in the game is pitifully unrewarding compared to running drugs.

I just don't get why folks like OP want to hit my fun zone with a nerf bat just because y'all's fun zone didn't get enough love. Any my fun zone is pretty small to begin with because 95% of it (trading anything else but drugs and guns) is unplayable.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 04:41:10 PM by bonerstorm »
Logged

30to1

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2021, 04:41:04 PM »

the other balance could be that worlds were drugs are allowed shouldn't really be in any short supply of them really (I mean come on pirates would totally have space opium plantations), instead worlds like Chicomoztoc, Sindria and Kazeron should be the big consumers, and the balance with them is that they are always heavily patrolled. Kinda like how third world countries have no shortages of drugs yet first world countries do (trust my experience of lifelong Southamericanism)
Regarding heavy armaments it would be easier to lock them behind underworld contacts (I mean come on you don't sell that kind of stuff in a street market) that way you MIGHT become an arms dealer but not without a bit of time investment, could also carry some relation mallus just like in Nexerelin (found out about this the fun way lol)

This is actually a fantastic solution.

Having the highest drug/weapon margins be in systems that are most heavily patrolled solves the entire problem AND makes sense from an immersion perspective.

Trying to get drugs into a size 7 hegemony military planet would be difficult and warrant larger profits. Plus it carries risk because if patrols seize your contraband you could lose hundreds of thousands worth of cargo.

This is a legit solution.
Logged

Ad Astra

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 263
  • Are Reapers strawberry flavored?
    • View Profile
Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2021, 05:01:53 PM »

AND makes sense from an immersion perspective.

Poor Alex could've never seen this coming... he added substantial amounts of lore to the game and now, after the number crunchers managed to open the once silent domain gates, the horrors that lied beyond now come charging in.

You invited us UHMMERSION nerds into the fold! Everyone is doomed I tell you! DOOOMED! Your days of lorebreaking capital spam are at an end!

Jokes aside, when in doubt, trying to fix things with mechanics that are already present by just giving the scenario more "realism" in how things behave is usually successful and efficient in effort input/result output.
Logged
You can park your spaceship anywhere you want if you get along with pirates

Chow

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2021, 04:44:51 AM »

the other balance could be that worlds were drugs are allowed shouldn't really be in any short supply of them really (I mean come on pirates would totally have space opium plantations), instead worlds like Chicomoztoc, Sindria and Kazeron should be the big consumers, and the balance with them is that they are always heavily patrolled. Kinda like how third world countries have no shortages of drugs yet first world countries do (trust my experience of lifelong Southamericanism)
Regarding heavy armaments it would be easier to lock them behind underworld contacts (I mean come on you don't sell that kind of stuff in a street market) that way you MIGHT become an arms dealer but not without a bit of time investment, could also carry some relation mallus just like in Nexerelin (found out about this the fun way lol)

This is actually a fantastic solution.

Having the highest drug/weapon margins be in systems that are most heavily patrolled solves the entire problem AND makes sense from an immersion perspective.

Trying to get drugs into a size 7 hegemony military planet would be difficult and warrant larger profits. Plus it carries risk because if patrols seize your contraband you could lose hundreds of thousands worth of cargo.

This is a legit solution.

In my opinion, you should also be fined heavily and be refused to dock at their worlds for a long time if you are caught trying to smuggle illegal commodities into their colony instead of just lose your cargo and your faction relationship only. After all, you will be imprisoned for years on charges of drugs or arms smuggling in real life.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 04:51:06 AM by Chow »
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12159
    • View Profile
Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2021, 04:49:18 AM »

Probably peanuts compared to the war crimes the player will likely do (raids, murder patrols, abuse AI, bomb worlds).  Not to mention the Galatian quest chain that the core worlds take extreme interest in, and most probably want to assassinate your guy for upsetting the status quo.
Logged

bonerstorm

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2021, 10:30:53 AM »

*SNIP*
You can already do all of those things that you say you want to do, and none of the things you say you are obligated to do, and still make plenty of money. I have not run drugs once in either this version or the last, simply because its boring and a player doesn't need to. Any of those things you really want to do: just go do them. Its fun.

But people will do drug running because its the "best", where "best" is the most/fastest/easiest, not interesting or fun. Since a better game is one where people spend there time doing interesting things rather than boring things:

(a) drug runs need to become more interesting or (b) drug runs need to be nerfed into the ground so that people don't do them.

Personally, I vote for option (a), and thats going to come with restrictions and gameplay challenges to overcome: more pirate patrols to sneak by. No access to the black market without contacts or sneaking. Hunter fleets coming after the player. Surprise inspections by main faction patrols once the player gets a reputation as a smuggler... etc. There are lots of ways it could be done.
^ HELL YES to the bolded portion! Glad to know that that's the primary instinct.

After I've had some time to think about it, I think the root issue here is that the game has grown a LOT in this release and some parts of the game are still catching up.

For the first time, the economy in general works at scale - so large-scale drug running is as possible and lucrative as it should be.

But also the system through which faction fleets threaten and interact with the player hasn't grown enough to match that pace.

Like how apparently none of the lawful factions care when you're regularly running 4000 units of drugs in one trade route and how it doesn't occur to anyone to try to confiscate/steal it from you. Or how getting caught with said 4000 units of drugs will be a minor relations penalty rather than getting you declared an outlaw or even fired from your job as a commissioned officer. Or how costs are such that there's no incentive to get into space battles that aren't horrendously lopsided in your favor, so you just quit + reload whenever you manage to lose a ship you can't recover + repair.

Also how commissions and warfare work in general. Right now, a commission with any faction is functionally the same (you get money and occasionally other factions go temporarily hostile) except for the specific ships and armaments available in their military markets - which matters less and less in the later game.

And - if a mission is particularly dangerous (which it should be) - then there should be some mechanic were you get resupplied with fresh faction ships if you take losses fighting faction enemies (which would be an incentive for players to actually make use of faction ships instead of always spamming their favorites).

Commissioned officers should probably have orders - auto-accepted missions with extra-long timers like "disrupt the port at Kapetyn Starworks". Maybe even standing orders - instead of the current standing orders of "blow up all faction enemies" it's "ship X supplies/month to Jangala" or "survey every planet in the X constellation" or "scan for smugglers in Corvus" or "supply deep-cover operatives in Tri-Tach colonies". Players should probably get their pick of long-term assignments categorized as warfare, logistics & special ops - and spend faction rep to request transfers or changes of assignment or leaves of absence.

Similarly, warfare is just doomstack fleets spawning and tossing themselves at colonies until either they decivilize or the heat death of the universe happens.

It'd be cool if there were purpose-built fleets beyond just patrols and armadas - like hyperspace interdiction task forces (which has minimum combat/burn speed requirements) and special ops units (which have insulated hulls and maybe phase ships) and deep-hyperspace ambushers (which have solar shielding and high-res sensors).

And of course there are crazy things like invasions and occupations and blockades - which I understand exist in mods but I definitely wouldn't want to see in a release before things WAY higher than them on the priority list are done.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 10:35:19 AM by bonerstorm »
Logged

speeder

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 364
    • View Profile
Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2021, 10:52:11 AM »

Why the tariff is on purchase too?

I mean... black market is usually where you go SELL things ilegally, why I need them to purcahse stuff too?

Specially since it annoys factions, it would be great if you could buy things, legally, from factions you like, and then smuggle them to factions you don't like.

for example you could buy dunno, organics from Persean League and then sell it on black market at Hegemony, this means you would get a relationship boost with persean league and a malus with hegemony, would make much more sense not only economics-wise but relationship wise too.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]