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Author Topic: Civilian Ships should only count as combat ships if they use a Package  (Read 871 times)

Embolism

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Militarised Subsystems is more often than not used for its logistical bonuses than any will to use the ship in combat. And if I actually want to use a militarised civilian ship in combat then I'd also use Assault or Escort Package on it.

With that in mind, Militarised Subsystems is basically a big nerf to your fleet because it eats into fleet bonus limits. I propose that only ships with Assault or Escort Package count for these limits instead, including the Auxiliary Support skill.

On a related note, Phase Corps says it only affects "combat" phase ships, but both Revenant and Phantom are counted... to add insult to injury they're the only non-combat ships that have no weapons and can't use Converted Hangars, and therefore are obviously not meant for combat under any circumstances. Neither should count for Phase Corps' 30 DP limit.
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KDR_11k

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Auxiliary Support buffs the effects of Militarized Subsystems too but I think it'd be fine to have the buff only apply when a package is installed.

Also would be nice if the packages didn't have such bad baseline stats so they could be used without the skill too rather than the skill giving such a huge increase but the baseline being so terrible.
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Embolism

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Auxiliary Support buffs the effects of Militarized Subsystems too but I think it'd be fine to have the buff only apply when a package is installed.

Yes but it shouldn't because a lot of civvie ships get Militarised Subsystems only for the logistics effects.

Say you have a Gemini with Militarised Subsystems and Assault Package and you want it buffed by Auxiliary Support. Great, but if you also have an Atlas with Militarised Subsystems for the extra Burn level then suddenly your Gemini is a lot weaker for no reason even though the Atlas is never meant to see combat.
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Amoebka

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On a somewhat related note, not everything without the civilian hull should be considered a military ship. It's somewhat stupid when the game is supposed to encourage you to keep marines around and raid, but both Valkyrie and Phantom ruin your fleet skills.
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ChaseBears

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I think the game should just drop militarized subsystems entirely, and just use the escort/assault packages.   At least you only ever put those mods on actual combat ships! 

The biggest use of M-subs was always the +1 burn speed.  That always felt weird, my decision whether to militarize something never had anything to do with whether I wanted in combat, and in fact i often explicitly avoid it on 'combat auxiliaries' because I need the OP.    And now we have Bulk Transport which solves the 'burn speed issue' for free.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 04:54:55 PM by ChaseBears »
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If I were creating the world I wouldn’t mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o’clock, Day One!

AHandyDandyHotDog

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I really hate how civvie ships are just basically completely worse before Mil-Subs is installed. Shouldn't that be only something you use if you want to use a civvie ship as a combat ship; If civvie ships weren't arbitrarily slower without mil-subs and civilian hull wasn't just an arbitrary nerf, that would be so much better.

Civilian hulls being a random nerf to detection ranges and not like armor or hull strength is odd, there should be a reason that you maybe might want a civilian hull on your ship that already has no business being used to fight with; it would make the choice of whether or not to use mil-subs not mandatory but a thing you have to think about.

Civvie hull should have a bonus to all types cargo capacity due to extra space in the ship not being pointlessly used by combat systems they're not going to make use of, at the maybe weapon accuracy and performance time to make escapes harder.
Mil-subs would then remove the cargo bonus from civvie hull, then in return adding armor, hull strength and peak performance time, which would make escapes slightly easier and making the ship combat capable.

Even precollapse, I don't see a reason why the Domain would purposely make trading ships and civvie ships easy for pirates, that they still inevitably have, to spot.

Maybe I'm missing something, but these are my opinions.
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SafariJohn

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Civ ships will always be worse because they have so few weapon mounts.
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Pax_Empyrean

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Re: Civilian Ships should only count as combat ships if they use a Package
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2021, 04:35:16 AM »

Before I made a thread suggesting exactly this, I did a search and found this one. So, here's my +1 for this idea.

While only counting packages would be the most elegant solution, if that couldn't be implemented for some reason, a possible alternative would be to split the logistical effects of Militarized Subsystems off into a separate hullmod so you're not diluting your auxiliary pool with a bunch of ships that will never deliberately see combat. If that couldn't be done, then just removing the OP cap and reducing the bonus to something like a flat +400% would still be better than what we've got, without making them overpowered (probably).
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 04:38:45 AM by Pax_Empyrean »
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slowpersun

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Re: Civilian Ships should only count as combat ships if they use a Package
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2021, 10:19:44 AM »

Agree.  If not, the following suggestion about a separate hull-mod just for logistical effect would also be welcome.

Before I made a thread suggesting exactly this, I did a search and found this one. So, here's my +1 for this idea.

While only counting packages would be the most elegant solution, if that couldn't be implemented for some reason, a possible alternative would be to split the logistical effects of Militarized Subsystems off into a separate hullmod so you're not diluting your auxiliary pool with a bunch of ships that will never deliberately see combat. If that couldn't be done, then just removing the OP cap and reducing the bonus to something like a flat +400% would still be better than what we've got, without making them overpowered (probably).

And if none of this is OK, at least a VERY CLEAR indicator that using militarized subsystems makes a civilian ship count against the combat ship bonus limit would be very nice...
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Sandor057

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Re: Civilian Ships should only count as combat ships if they use a Package
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2021, 11:13:25 AM »

I wholeheartedly agree with the idea. Perhaps making different types of ships would also be beneficial?

Currently the clearly differentiated ship types are Automated, Military/Militarized, Phase and Civilian ships. However, depending on their function, they could be categorized into different groups. Carriers, exploration vessels, combat-converted ships and logistics vessels all have different roles, and as such, should or should not a specific skill type. The Valkyre or Phantom have no right to take up military fleet points, while at the same time a buffalo with Militarized Subsystems has no right to count as a combat ship. I could imagine this working as build-in hullmods which give no bonuses other, than categorization for the ships. Or perhaps a new feature making it possible to assign ship types to combat roles (e. g. assigning the "Assault" tag to the Atlas Mk. II Superfreighter would make it a combat ship).
This would make it kinda necessary for the player to set ship tags and not just have a bazillion "Custom" ships. Not everyone would like it I guess. I find customizing my ships fun though. Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the matter.
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JaronK

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Re: Civilian Ships should only count as combat ships if they use a Package
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2021, 02:08:57 PM »

I certainly agree.  I put Militarized Systems on ships for the burn speed and reduced sensor profile, not to put them in combat.  I'm not sending that Atlas or Prometheus into a fight, I just want the damn thing to keep up with the fleet!
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Drazan

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Re: Civilian Ships should only count as combat ships if they use a Package
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2021, 12:04:08 AM »

Agree. The best solutions of course would be a complete overhaul of the civillian hullmod like what AHandyDandyHotDog mentioned.
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