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Author Topic: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together  (Read 2841 times)

Nameless

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If you are aiming for full Industry tree, it makes no sense that you have to get both Field Repair and Derelict Contingent as the prior counteracts the later. And imo the Industry tree is all about saving you money but removing D-mods actually costs you more money in terms of maintenance cost.

Derelict Contingent feels more like a Technology thing and it would make sense to swap it with Special Modification or Automated Ships imo or simply just redesign the skill.
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Lorebot

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Re: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2021, 10:22:32 PM »

Remember that Derelict Contingent only applies to ships with officers and Field Repairs only actively removes d-mods once every 2 months. You can get a lot of value out of having a handful of d-mod loaded ships with Derelict Contingent while you wait for Field Repairs to remove the d-mods slowly over time. The point of Derelict Contingent isn't that you'll fly a fleet full of 5d-mod loaded ships, tho that's certainly a way to use it. It's so that when you find a ship with a lot of d-mods you have a reason to throw an officer in it and actually use it instead of just scuttling it or carrying it around mothballed till you can get it restored. Meanwhile Field Repairs is meant to help mitigate the costs of being in combat a lot through reducing supply use on repairs and allowing you to recover your important ships when they get disabled/destroyed with less d-mods while allowing you to recover from fights that go badly overtime without having to invest in Restoring ships.

They have a bit of counter synergy, but that's why they're on the same tier of the Industry tree. A lot of the skills that share tiers have counter synergy or relate to very different types of fleets/doctrines.
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TuxedoCatfish

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Re: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2021, 11:16:48 PM »

I feel like skill tree looping in general was only included to pacify people and no effort was made to actually make it a good decision. All of the trees include skills that are redundant if you loop, while the either/or choices on an initial pass are much more interesting and logical, a few duds aside.
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Lorebot

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Re: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2021, 11:38:46 PM »

I feel like 'looping' is a pretty bad implementation and instead of requiring you to go back through the entire skill tree again it should just let you cherry pick what you want after you've spent enough skill points elsewhere or earned enough levels, or maybe be allowed to skip tiers by spending story points or something if you don't want to invest skill points.
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Realm

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Re: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2021, 04:06:22 AM »

I feel like 'looping' is a pretty bad implementation and instead of requiring you to go back through the entire skill tree again it should just let you cherry pick what you want after you've spent enough skill points elsewhere or earned enough levels, or maybe be allowed to skip tiers by spending story points or something if you don't want to invest skill points.

This is how I'd hoped it would work, especially with how Leadership has really niche/bad early skills when you might want to just double dip into the Colony or Officer skills. Industry has it worse if you want to double dip into it's Colony skills, since Derelict Contingent and Field Repair have a strong anti-synergy.
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Nameless

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Re: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2021, 07:49:39 AM »

That's the issue i'm seeing. I'm basically being punished for going heavy Industry by effectively losing one character level.

I can always change this myself but that's not the point.
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Radicaljack

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Re: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2021, 10:36:00 AM »

It is the worst but not the only example of the flaws of the new skill system. Also I think derelict contingent is a terrible skill in general, just a gimmick and not at all a skill that reflects anything realistic, or fun.
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Locklave

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Re: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2021, 11:01:51 AM »

Remember that Derelict Contingent only applies to ships with officers and Field Repairs only actively removes d-mods once every 2 months. You can get a lot of value out of having a handful of d-mod loaded ships with Derelict Contingent while you wait for Field Repairs to remove the d-mods slowly over time.

No, just no. That's not how anything should work.

Don't make excuses to overshadow how bad the design is.

They have a bit of counter synergy,

Over time one completely destroys the other. That's not "a bit" of counter synergy.
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Lorebot

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Re: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2021, 01:51:50 PM »

Remember that Derelict Contingent only applies to ships with officers and Field Repairs only actively removes d-mods once every 2 months. You can get a lot of value out of having a handful of d-mod loaded ships with Derelict Contingent while you wait for Field Repairs to remove the d-mods slowly over time.

No, just no. That's not how anything should work.

Don't make excuses to overshadow how bad the design is.

They have a bit of counter synergy,

Over time one completely destroys the other. That's not "a bit" of counter synergy.

Maybe I'm missing something...but isn't the point that Derelict Contingent allows you to actually make decent use of busted ship until you can get them restored? You're not actively trying to fly around with a fleet full of broken stuff are you? Sure it lowers the supply cost of running those ships, but they're going to be way less effective in combat. Derelict Contingent only makes ships take less hull damage, so you can be a bit more aggressive with broken ships if you have a spare officer to put in them. It doesn't improve their damage output or negate the effects of the d-mods. The point seems to be allowing you to use 'broken' ships with less risk of them being destroyed or getting more d-mods until you can get them restored or find better (ie less broken) ships. It's a stop gap measure not an end point.

Meanwhile Field Repairs allows you to recovery more easily from combat with free repairs and helps keep down the number of d-mods on your ships by lowering the amount of d-mods on recovered ships and removing 1 random d-mod every other month. It's purpose is to keep an active fleet running for less supplies and slowly restoring your damaged ships over time. It pushes your fleet towards its best possible performance and lowers the repair costs of combat.

Each of these skill is good on its own for it's own purposes. Together they work to keep your fleet operating at its best while allowing you to keep using ships that get damaged along the way. If you're actively trying to fill your fleet with 5d-mod ships to try to cheese the system then I think you're missing the point and probably making the game a lot harder than it should be because your ships are going to move slower and do less damage...the fact that they'll take less damage doesn't offset the fact that they're objectively worse than their restored counterparts. And that fact that Derelict Contingent doesn't work unless there's an officer in the ship means you may have to pull officers out of the ships you want them to be in just to take advantage of it...if you have to sacrifice the performance of a good ship to make a broken ship viable then you're giving up your bonuses for mediocrity.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 01:54:52 PM by Lorebot »
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Amoebka

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Re: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2021, 01:53:42 PM »

Derelict contingent should just somewhat mitigate how bad d-modded ships are, but in practice it's so busted you actively want to fly 5 d-mods because it makes your ships stronger than pristine versions.

Derelict contingent just needs a complete rework, nothing else to be said about it.
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Locklave

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Re: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2021, 05:08:48 AM »

Maybe I'm missing something...but isn't the point that Derelict Contingent allows you to actually make decent use of busted ship until you can get them restored? You're not actively trying to fly around with a fleet full of broken stuff are you?

You want them to stay broken. That's the point of the skill, why it exists. You are trying to fly around in broken stuff.

Why did you waste a skill point on this if you intend to not continue using d mod ships? If you wanted to stop using d mod ships you'd pick Field Repairs and they'd be gone fast enough. Why did you waste a point on something you didn't plan on continuing to use?

If they were a single skill, sure, they'd be more viable till you fix them. But this is 2 skills requiring you to loop the tree.

Derelict contingent should just somewhat mitigate how bad d-modded ships are, but in practice it's so busted you actively want to fly 5 d-mods because it makes your ships stronger than pristine versions.

Derelict contingent just needs a complete rework, nothing else to be said about it.

The entire tree needs reworking, this skill is just the most glaring example. It's become a 2 or 4 point skill tree, no one playing seriously goes 10 points in.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 05:12:01 AM by Locklave »
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Jet Black

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Re: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2021, 06:33:33 AM »

Honestly, the derelict contingent skill finally gives me a use for armoured ships.  I usually shy away from low tech armoured ships because shields are better..

I got this skill and threw a aggro officer who I would normally dismiss into a busted up ship I had no money to repair. Maxed out its armour, took its shields off and it worked quite well. I really like this skill the way it is.

With both of the skills, I save a ton of money on repairs, reload A LOT LESS, can use busted up ships, can use ship types and officer types I normally wouldn't. There is no down side.

If you want to exploit something to cheese the game and ruin it why not  just use cheats? Cant you help yourself?
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Megas

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Re: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2021, 07:21:52 AM »

Why did you waste a skill point on this if you intend to not continue using d mod ships? If you wanted to stop using d mod ships you'd pick Field Repairs and they'd be gone fast enough. Why did you waste a point on something you didn't plan on continuing to use?
Because player may have wanted to play colonial industrialist and is forced to take both Industry 4 skills to get what he really wanted - both Industry 5 skills.

(That said, I would not do this myself because I also want many skills from other trees.  I want Industry to 1) preserve s-mod ships without paying an arm-and-a-leg for restore and 2) I want to be a colonial industrialist if I cannot use cores.)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 07:24:08 AM by Megas »
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Jet Black

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Re: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2021, 07:30:17 AM »

Could move derelict to t5 and one of the colony skills to t4. It would fix a lot and balance derelict out, given its power.
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Megas

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Re: Field Repair and Derelict Contingent makes no sense to be together
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2021, 07:37:39 AM »

That would hurt if the colony skill I wanted shared the same tier as Field Repairs, and Field Repairs is huge QoL for fixing the occasional loss without paying way too much money restoring the ship.
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