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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Hyperspace Topography (10/12/22)

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Author Topic: More restraints on s-mods for more interesting usage  (Read 5325 times)

ChaseBears

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Re: More restraints on s-mods for more interesting usage
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2021, 10:29:02 AM »

i mean you are just calling into question why the 2-logistics limit even *exists* now if the s-mods entirely break it.  The whole point was to stop people slamming every logistics mod on their civilian ships and now we're right back to it. S-mods! So you don't have to make choices.
It's a choice between putting an s-mod on a logistics ship or using it elsewhere, though. Augmented Drive Field on a capital ship is a 0% bonus XP investment, I'm pretty sure, and I've currently got...14, 16, maybe 17 such ships in my fleet? That's a ton of bonus XP and SP I simply wouldn't have to option to invest in if s-mods didn't break the 2 logistics limit.

The logistics limit exists so that player actually make choices when configuring their logistics ships.  Part of what makes Starsector compelling is the depth of the ship building side of the game.  Spending story points to break that side of the game is shortchanging it in favor of what is essentially a worker placement mechanic that is done better on any of a thousand mobile games.
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If I were creating the world I wouldn’t mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o’clock, Day One!

SCC

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Re: More restraints on s-mods for more interesting usage
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2021, 10:43:29 AM »

I don't discount logistic ships' s-mod limit breaking, I just plainly ignore it. I don't have issues with making money through exploring, I have issues with fighting other fleets, and in this situation, spreadsheet ships are just in for the ride.

AcaMetis

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Re: More restraints on s-mods for more interesting usage
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2021, 10:51:55 AM »

i mean you are just calling into question why the 2-logistics limit even *exists* now if the s-mods entirely break it.  The whole point was to stop people slamming every logistics mod on their civilian ships and now we're right back to it. S-mods! So you don't have to make choices.
It's a choice between putting an s-mod on a logistics ship or using it elsewhere, though. Augmented Drive Field on a capital ship is a 0% bonus XP investment, I'm pretty sure, and I've currently got...14, 16, maybe 17 such ships in my fleet? That's a ton of bonus XP and SP I simply wouldn't have to option to invest in if s-mods didn't break the 2 logistics limit.
The logistics limit exists so that player actually make choices when configuring their logistics ships.  Part of what makes Starsector compelling is the depth of the ship building side of the game.  Spending story points to break that side of the game is shortchanging it in favor of what is essentially a worker placement mechanic that is done better on any of a thousand mobile games.
I barely made any choices prior to this patch, though. ADF/MS to get burn speed up to at least 9, expanded cargo/fuel for dedicated freighters/tankers to increase capacity (assuming MS was present, otherwise the maintenance cost increase put a stop to that), Efficiency overhaul if there was space left...and that was it. The closet I got to "choice" was putting ADF and EO on Colossi to have cheaper freighters at the cost of being visible from Domain space, which is of questionable value when out exploring where at least every other random fleet wants to kill you. My surveying ships used to be my Hammerheads just because putting the hullmods on actual logistics ships was never an option. Never enough room.

Now? With High Resolution Sensors changed and a skill which obsoletes half of MS introduced I've got a lot more options available, for logistics ships as well as combat ships since I no longer need to dress up combat ships as glorified surveying platforms. I've got actual builds for logistics ships which depend on my skill selection. It's not a vast array, but it's an improvement nonetheless.
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Chthonic One

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Re: More restraints on s-mods for more interesting usage
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2021, 11:05:31 AM »

I don't like that there's no decision to make - you're objectively wrong to not build in the most expensive mods.  Choosing what mod you S-mod should be a matter of the players preference. Assigning an OP value to S-mods, either directly or indirectly, would at least let players emphasize different mods.  Maybe I want to standardize Armored Weapon Mounts throughout my whole fleet. 

Another thought is that S-mods could have escalating SP costs. If it cost 2 Story Points to mount additional S-mods, that would mean you pick a few important ships to slap 3 s-mods on instead of like, every officer ship.
And what good does armored weapon mounts do for your carriers and missile frigates that hang out behind your front line, and don't get shot at repeatedly? It becomes a wasted slot.

My point is that unless you have a completely monotoned fleet without any variety, there is no reason why you aren't picking a variety of mods anyways. If you do have a completely monotoned fleet, you really aren't using tactics in combat.
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Flunky

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Re: More restraints on s-mods for more interesting usage
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2021, 01:58:46 PM »

Considering you get more bonus XP for cheaper s-mods, putting some on smaller ships shouldn't make a perceptible dent in your late-game SP count, no?
The math could very well say it shouldn't, I've never checked, but it always feels like it does. I think the issue is that in practice lots of bonus xp just means a larger bank which gets paid out at the same consistent rate. It doesn't matter whether I've banked enough for one SP or ten, I get them at the same consistent rate. Well, assuming I can keep the bank filled, which expensive s-mods don't do, but I find enough uses to keep the bonus xp going.

Going to add to the chorus on this point. In my playing thus far I've found it relatively easy to end up in permanent bonus XP that never gets fully paid off. I do tend to avoid the SP choices that give low/0 bonus XP payouts, though.
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