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Author Topic: Trade is brokenly unbalanced  (Read 9830 times)

Histidine

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2021, 07:42:39 PM »

Regarding the OP:

- Pirate/pather markets need something to buff their accessibility so they're not in forever deficit. If we don't want to make them all free ports, perhaps reduce/clamp the accessibility penalty from faction hostility, and/or give them something to make up for it (waystations, SP enhancement for the starport, or maybe something completely new?)

- Possibly the price spike from deficits is too great on the high end... which is because trading in general needs enough of a price differential to overcome the damn 30% tariff on both ends. Which doesn't affect black market trade, so it becomes hugely OP.
  - On that note, there have been suggestion threads about making the black market not the no-brainer for trade, e.g. by limiting the number of goods you can dump into it before the fences can no longer move them effectively.

On pirate ambushes:

The concept is fine for smuggling to/from the organised factions, but if I deliver a huge load of supplies to a pirate base and a pirate fleet tries to rob me afterwards I'd be like "gooby, do you want your pirate bases to not have supplies?"
Can be worked around by having Pathers be the ones ambushing the player after a big pirate transaction and vice-versa. For that matter, since the big factions don't want to see people supplying outlaws, their enforcers should be the ones interfering.
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Flying Birdy

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2021, 08:07:35 PM »

Hi! Just wanted to say, thank you for the detailed feedback. Made a note to take a look at this aspect of things specifically; as you say, if smuggling to pirate/Pather worlds doesn't require (or even reward) engaging with the stealth mechanics, that needs some adjustment.

There is a somewhat stealth aspect to smuggling to pirate worlds in that pirate fleets will actively try and kill you early on, but as the OP partially noted, once you get strong enough pirate worlds just become free money because the patrols will flee.

Another issue is that the high value/margins of drugs make it so early players can smuggle large values of goods with extremely small fleets, which effectively mitigates all risk. For instance, even with just the most basic starting ships - wolf and a shephard - I can get access to 210 cargo space. Assuming 20 supplies, then that's 190 space for drugs, each bringing in 200-300 profit when sold at a planet with $450 drug prices. That's 40-60k profit per run with just starting ships. If I really wanted to abuse the system, I can then buy nothing but Hounds, give them cargo holds, SO, unstable injector and they are essentially unkillable runners each capable of carrying ~40k of drugs (or 20-30k of profit).

The easy access to metric tons of drugs also enables trading to be an insane money maker mid-game to late game. Due to Eochu Bres providing a supply of ~1000 drugs at any given time, a player can satisfy the entirety of any shortages at 450 drug prices. Even though some of the drugs are only available through the open market, buying drugs at 220 still allows for ~200 profit on each drug.

None of these extremes are possible with things like supplies, ore, metals, or consumer goods because those goods are lower in value. Even if supplies are sold at 100% profit, the profit/100 cargo space is still only 10k.

An easy fix I think would be to just change the base prices of drugs, organs, and weapons to 100/100/250 respectively. Shortages should be closer to ~200 rather than their current 600-1000 for drugs. Similarly, number of drugs available in Eochus Bres should be scaled down to ~500 in total at any given time.
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bonerstorm

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2021, 09:56:51 PM »

Hi! Just wanted to say, thank you for the detailed feedback. Made a note to take a look at this aspect of things specifically; as you say, if smuggling to pirate/Pather worlds doesn't require (or even reward) engaging with the stealth mechanics, that needs some adjustment.

I'm trying to be as un-jerkly as I can when I say this because I really understand the sentiment, but PLEASE don't respond to the slightly broken nature of running drugs/guns/marines/supplies to pirates/pathers by increasing interaction with the stealth mechanic. The new version is tough enough on stealth in the early game, even when taking the Sensors skill. As another comment pointed out, it's practically impossible to do stealth missions in Hegemony space without phase ships and all-insulated/militarized fleet.

To be more precise: buying drugs and weapons doesn't trigger stealth if you're getting it from Eochu Bres, but they only have a limited supply. You can run drugs and weapons to pirates or pathers, but unless they're non-hostile through actions the player earned they have to show up with a big enough fleet to scare off any pirates in the area. Several times I've made this run in the early game only to have to blow a story point to avoid getting stomped by a mid-to-late-game strength pirate fleet. Then there's also the fact that sometimes Eochu Bres doesn't have much in stock and sometimes the demand gets filled by the time you get there so you're stuck with a hold full of cargo that you can't sell for greater than the cost you paid for it.

Honestly that's a problem in general with trading, besides the 30% tariff: once "demand" is met, prices immediately drop to less than par... which is unrealistic in markets with chronic shortages.

OP is right that this is an amazing way to make money but it's not without risks and honestly I'd have stopped playing the current build if this didn't exist. I *like* the RP of running guns to Space Al Qaida to make fat stacks of cash while risking my fleet every step of the way. I also happen to think - in-character - that they're mostly right. And there's really no other trading or mission or bounty or anything that rewards well enough to justify similar time and risk.

Here's my suggestion:
Instead of coming up with a new mechanic where pirates spawn based on your cargo contents like some mentioned, you just repurpose the existing code for normal faction policing so that it applies to pirates too and works whether or not your transponder is on.

That way Pirate fleets will actually be *** off if you avoid paying Pirate tariffs and chase you to collect "Kanta's cut". Also instead of random scans for contraband, it's random scans for hot loot they can extort from you... giving players the option to give up a slice of their cargo in exchange for staying alive and doing so gives you status that can eventually translate into being cleared for trade. Maybe being on a pirate trade mission makes them let you through regardless of your status.

Pirates and Pathers NEED smugglers to survive. They should act like it and reward commensurately. If running drugs were as unprofitable as running food, then what would be the point of doing it???
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bonerstorm

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2021, 10:11:58 PM »

I also can't believe people are seriously arguing that trading needs to be MORE unprofitable.

Aside from drugs and guns, there are literally no commodities in the universe that regularly trade for profit that exceeds the 30% tariffs that you pay on buying AND selling, barring market-breaking shortages. Not a one. That is a scenario that is unprecedented in the entire history of humanity.

I can understand making trading more DANGEROUS. That's legit. There should be risk and reward. But nerfing trade into the ground like that just makes me think... why even HAVE a trading system? What's the design philosophy - hell... what's the point - of a game that's impossible to win?

Privateer nailed this aesthetic perfectly. Bounty hunting and merc work are very lucrative, but extremely dangerous and require significant investment in hardware, while trading gives modest returns that can go straight into the red if you run into a fight your trading ship can't handle.

I want to be Han Solo and Malcolm Reynolds. I want to buy low and sell high. I want to dodge pirates and corrupt cops. I want to barely make enough profit to afford fuel and definitely not to afford regular maintenance. I want to survive on the bitter edge of a human civilization descending into madness.

The current system isn't that. The current system is either smuggling or nothing, with no room for an ethically-flexible band of gray-market misfits doing a mix of legit and questionable jobs as they come up.
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Thaago

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2021, 10:27:14 PM »

Well to be a bit pedantic, Mal and the crew of the Firefly almost exclusively did jobs through their contacts having work for them, not open trading or smuggling their own cargo. They struggled to find enough money to even stay flying, suggesting that there may have been a lack of legitimate trading opportunities available to them.
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Pushover

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2021, 10:49:53 PM »

I also can't believe people are seriously arguing that trading needs to be MORE unprofitable.

Aside from drugs and guns, there are literally no commodities in the universe that regularly trade for profit that exceeds the 30% tariffs that you pay on buying AND selling, barring market-breaking shortages. Not a one. That is a scenario that is unprecedented in the entire history of humanity.

I can understand making trading more DANGEROUS. That's legit. There should be risk and reward. But nerfing trade into the ground like that just makes me think... why even HAVE a trading system? What's the design philosophy - hell... what's the point - of a game that's impossible to win?

Privateer nailed this aesthetic perfectly. Bounty hunting and merc work are very lucrative, but extremely dangerous and require significant investment in hardware, while trading gives modest returns that can go straight into the red if you run into a fight your trading ship can't handle.

I want to be Han Solo and Malcolm Reynolds. I want to buy low and sell high. I want to dodge pirates and corrupt cops. I want to barely make enough profit to afford fuel and definitely not to afford regular maintenance. I want to survive on the bitter edge of a human civilization descending into madness.

The current system isn't that. The current system is either smuggling or nothing, with no room for an ethically-flexible band of gray-market misfits doing a mix of legit and questionable jobs as they come up.
I think the big issues are that
  • It's too easy to trade fully on the black market with minimal repercussions. You can dodge patrols on most planets if you have a reasonable burn speed. As long as you don't have illegal cargo, if you do get scanned it's only a loss of some rep, which can easily be offset by a few small fights with system bounties. Quantity doesn't seem to matter beyond a certain point. I liked Nexerelin's semi-solution to this, where funding a rebellion is very profitable, but severely hurts relations with the market owner.
  • 30% tariff is way too high. Doing any major amount of 'cover' trading to hide smuggling cuts into the profit by too much to be viable. Against a 30% tariff, you need an 86% price difference to even make a tiny profit. Given that the stated goal of the tariff is to avoid having players ship goods around when there's only a tiny price difference, the tariff doesn't need to be so high.
  • A few goods are almost never worth trading, Ore (and to a lesser extent, Food) because its value per unit (and potential profit per unit) is so rarely worth the cargo space. Metals because there is rarely a shortage (you'll trade in metals because you get it for free, not because you buy metals in any serious amount...)

I feel like commodities getting sold to the black market should require some investment (a contact/fence on the market you are selling at?) if you are doing it in any serious quantity. That way you are tying yourself to a single market, and access to that market becomes very important. As is, if my relations with say... the Sindrian Diktat becomes Inhospitable due to the amount of smuggling I'm doing in Askonia (best place to buy/sell Volatiles in-system, Lobster is always profitable), I can just go elsewhere for only a little less profit/more time investment. The crew of Serenity lived based on their contact network, and I'm hoping that more contact interactions are coming in the future.

I put up my general thoughts on trade here: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=19954
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Immahnoob

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2021, 10:50:25 PM »

Every "suggestion" seems to be "Just throw more fleets at the player or make everything not worth it".
Yeah, if the patrol can't handle me, just make it so that the pirate base suddenly throws about 10x patrols at me, magically, out of nowhere.
I also can't believe people are seriously arguing that trading needs to be MORE unprofitable.

Aside from drugs and guns, there are literally no commodities in the universe that regularly trade for profit that exceeds the 30% tariffs that you pay on buying AND selling, barring market-breaking shortages. Not a one. That is a scenario that is unprecedented in the entire history of humanity.

I can understand making trading more DANGEROUS. That's legit. There should be risk and reward. But nerfing trade into the ground like that just makes me think... why even HAVE a trading system? What's the design philosophy - hell... what's the point - of a game that's impossible to win?

Privateer nailed this aesthetic perfectly. Bounty hunting and merc work are very lucrative, but extremely dangerous and require significant investment in hardware, while trading gives modest returns that can go straight into the red if you run into a fight your trading ship can't handle.

I want to be Han Solo and Malcolm Reynolds. I want to buy low and sell high. I want to dodge pirates and corrupt cops. I want to barely make enough profit to afford fuel and definitely not to afford regular maintenance. I want to survive on the bitter edge of a human civilization descending into madness.

The current system isn't that. The current system is either smuggling or nothing, with no room for an ethically-flexible band of gray-market misfits doing a mix of legit and questionable jobs as they come up.
Yep, I agree with this, there's no in-between, and I honestly start to notice it more with the new skill-tree as well.
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Thaago

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2021, 11:01:20 PM »

Bad idea: you can only trade on the black market if you either have a contact at the world, or you sneak in without being detected.

...

The current system isn't that. The current system is either smuggling or nothing, with no room for an ethically-flexible band of gray-market misfits doing a mix of legit and questionable jobs as they come up.

Isn't this what contacts, bar missions, procurement missions, and shortages are? I get pop ups for jobs coming up pretty constantly.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 11:07:27 PM by Thaago »
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borgrel

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2021, 02:20:58 AM »

While deficits pushing the price up is a fine idea

In real life this is balanced by capital, even though people desperately need something, if they cant afford it, it doesnt matter how much they would be willing to pay

IMO just give each faction a single 'GDP' value that gets quick calculated based on income (or loss) for every colony in that faction once a month
if the value is low, deficit price hikes max out at hm, 20%?
if the value is high, deficit price hikes max out at the current value, with a linear scale between the 2 values, (like all sliding values use in this game)
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AcaMetis

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2021, 02:22:50 AM »

Regarding the OP:

- Pirate/pather markets need something to buff their accessibility so they're not in forever deficit. If we don't want to make them all free ports, perhaps reduce/clamp the accessibility penalty from faction hostility, and/or give them something to make up for it (waystations, SP enhancement for the starport, or maybe something completely new?)

- Possibly the price spike from deficits is too great on the high end... which is because trading in general needs enough of a price differential to overcome the damn 30% tariff on both ends. Which doesn't affect black market trade, so it becomes hugely OP.
  - On that note, there have been suggestion threads about making the black market not the no-brainer for trade, e.g. by limiting the number of goods you can dump into it before the fences can no longer move them effectively.

On pirate ambushes:

The concept is fine for smuggling to/from the organised factions, but if I deliver a huge load of supplies to a pirate base and a pirate fleet tries to rob me afterwards I'd be like "gooby, do you want your pirate bases to not have supplies?"
Can be worked around by having Pathers be the ones ambushing the player after a big pirate transaction and vice-versa. For that matter, since the big factions don't want to see people supplying outlaws, their enforcers should be the ones interfering.
Open market trading as a way to make money is unintended at best and a bug at worst, so why not just remove it outright and balance the game exclusively around black market smuggling? Putting a limit on how much you can fence would also quickly run into logic issues depending on how it's set up ("so your planet is missing 2000 Food? Well I'm afraid I'm only allowed to fence 100 per month, so guess I'm flying all over creation just to sell this stuff at a lower profit margin and leaving you guys with a massive deficit. Have fun!") and wouldn't make for fun gameplay besides ("oh yay I got 25K ore from a mining station, now to spend three cycles slowly but surely selling it to every single planet in all of creation 100 units at a time!").

Having other factions ambush the player makes some amount of sense, but it'd also be incredibly overplayed and boring. It feels like at least half of the current bar missions can result in an ambush fleet out of nowhere, exploration is full of them, the main quest is full of them, I really don't want even more bothering me.

I'm also of the opinion that all of this hammering on smuggling is just a distraction from bigger problems that the current patch has. 0.9.5 added a number of bar missions, contact missions and so on, so why are people still singing the same old song of "drugs drugs tons-o-drugs!" like nothing changed? Why do people not accept commission and cry about getting easy money for doing literally nothing? Why is bounty hunting not a viable career? How does buttering up a high importance contact not land you with opportunities more lucrative than just shipping more drugs? And why are drugs (and maybe guns to a lesser extent) the only thing(s) seen as worth shipping anyway? Why not any of the other commodities? Before bringing the hammer down on smuggling I'd like some answers to those questions, because it seems to me like smuggling isn't what's broken, it's the only thing that's somewhat functional in a sea of broken, ignored alternatives.
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Flying Birdy

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2021, 02:27:03 AM »

I also can't believe people are seriously arguing that trading needs to be MORE unprofitable.

Aside from drugs and guns, there are literally no commodities in the universe that regularly trade for profit that exceeds the 30% tariffs that you pay on buying AND selling, barring market-breaking shortages. Not a one. That is a scenario that is unprecedented in the entire history of humanity.

I don't think you have had the experience of exploiting the trading system. It is definitely far too profitable.

Supplies, fuel, heavy machinery, luxury goods are all frequently in shortage during the mid to late game. For instance, supplies are often traded at 200+ prices on pirate planets with shortage quantities of 500+ (somtimes 2k shortages even). That's a potential riskless profit of 50k at minimum. All that's needed is a run from Chicomoztec for the surplus black market supplies at ~83 price.

And the 30% tariff is for all intents and purposes irrelevant. You don't even need to take the patrol scan relationship penalty - just enter the market normally and e-burn immediately after selling the cargo.

As another comment pointed out, it's practically impossible to do stealth missions in Hegemony space without phase ships and all-insulated/militarized fleet.

It's entirely possible. The player just needs to bait the patrol away. Stealth mechanics are poorly understood, not underpowered.

To be more precise: buying drugs and weapons doesn't trigger stealth if you're getting it from Eochu Bres, but they only have a limited supply.

That's really not true. Eochu Bres has 1000+ drugs in stock when counting the open market. Sure you pay a 30% tariff to buy drugs at around ~220, but that's more or less not an issue when prices are 450+ on drugs. And this is not even counting the 500+ available on the other tri-tech planet in the same system.

OP is right that this is an amazing way to make money but it's not without risks and honestly I'd have stopped playing the current build if this didn't exist.

It really is riskless. And it doesn't even take skill to make a riskless smuggling fleet and exploit gameplay.

In the mid game, the pirates just don't bother chasing the player because the player is too strong (and the player reaches the mid-game after just 2-3 smuggling runs because the profits are so high).

In the early game, any fleet of hounds with Augmented drives, SO, injectors will never be caught and can disengage from any enemy with zero losses because the fleet will reach 13 burn with 255 in combat speed. Pirates don't even chase when you are that fast, all they do is harry your retreat.

That way Pirate fleets will actually be *** off if you avoid paying Pirate tariffs and chase you to collect "Kanta's cut". Also instead of random scans for contraband, it's random scans for hot loot they can extort from you... giving players the option to give up a slice of their cargo in exchange for staying alive and doing so gives you status that can eventually translate into being cleared for trade. Maybe being on a pirate trade mission makes them let you through regardless of your status.

This seems reasonable in theory but it still does not address the issue in practice; the AI needs to be buffed immensely to be able to prevent a player from just working around this nuisance. First of all, not all pirate shortage planets have patrols; many of them are wide open. Second, shortages are also frequent in core faction worlds. Third, shielded cargo holds are a thing and prevent scans. Four, fast fleets full of hounds aren't difficult to salvage or expensive to buy and they can get into any market without difficulty regardless of the mechanics in place.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 02:33:00 AM by Flying Birdy »
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Drazan

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2021, 03:14:24 AM »

Making money this easy from trading with pirates is definitely a problem. In one comment I have read something that in my oppinion can be close to an answer to this problem.
While deficits pushing the price up is a fine idea

In real life this is balanced by capital, even though people desperately need something, if they cant afford it, it doesnt matter how much they would be willing to pay

Just make the paying power of the pirates limited, they may have serious shortages but a band of pirates definitely dont have enough money to pay 1100 credit for an unit of heavy weapons. Balance it somehow that the pirates dont have unlimited money for this thing and will buy these thing on a lower price even when in a deficit.
You would still be tempted to use them for black market trades, beacuse of the lack of reprications there, opposed to other factions.

I also like the idea that pirates have less crushing deficits (beacuse they control the black market) and Luddites too (beacuse they are founded by the church).

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Immahnoob

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2021, 03:38:03 AM »

I also can't believe people are seriously arguing that trading needs to be MORE unprofitable.

Aside from drugs and guns, there are literally no commodities in the universe that regularly trade for profit that exceeds the 30% tariffs that you pay on buying AND selling, barring market-breaking shortages. Not a one. That is a scenario that is unprecedented in the entire history of humanity.

I don't think you have had the experience of exploiting the trading system. It is definitely far too profitable.

Supplies, fuel, heavy machinery, luxury goods are all frequently in shortage during the mid to late game. For instance, supplies are often traded at 200+ prices on pirate planets with shortage quantities of 500+ (somtimes 2k shortages even). That's a potential riskless profit of 50k at minimum. All that's needed is a run from Chicomoztec for the surplus black market supplies at ~83 price.

And the 30% tariff is for all intents and purposes irrelevant. You don't even need to take the patrol scan relationship penalty - just enter the market normally and e-burn immediately after selling the cargo.

As another comment pointed out, it's practically impossible to do stealth missions in Hegemony space without phase ships and all-insulated/militarized fleet.

It's entirely possible. The player just needs to bait the patrol away. Stealth mechanics are poorly understood, not underpowered.

To be more precise: buying drugs and weapons doesn't trigger stealth if you're getting it from Eochu Bres, but they only have a limited supply.

That's really not true. Eochu Bres has 1000+ drugs in stock when counting the open market. Sure you pay a 30% tariff to buy drugs at around ~220, but that's more or less not an issue when prices are 450+ on drugs. And this is not even counting the 500+ available on the other tri-tech planet in the same system.

OP is right that this is an amazing way to make money but it's not without risks and honestly I'd have stopped playing the current build if this didn't exist.

It really is riskless. And it doesn't even take skill to make a riskless smuggling fleet and exploit gameplay.

In the mid game, the pirates just don't bother chasing the player because the player is too strong (and the player reaches the mid-game after just 2-3 smuggling runs because the profits are so high).

In the early game, any fleet of hounds with Augmented drives, SO, injectors will never be caught and can disengage from any enemy with zero losses because the fleet will reach 13 burn with 255 in combat speed. Pirates don't even chase when you are that fast, all they do is harry your retreat.

That way Pirate fleets will actually be *** off if you avoid paying Pirate tariffs and chase you to collect "Kanta's cut". Also instead of random scans for contraband, it's random scans for hot loot they can extort from you... giving players the option to give up a slice of their cargo in exchange for staying alive and doing so gives you status that can eventually translate into being cleared for trade. Maybe being on a pirate trade mission makes them let you through regardless of your status.

This seems reasonable in theory but it still does not address the issue in practice; the AI needs to be buffed immensely to be able to prevent a player from just working around this nuisance. First of all, not all pirate shortage planets have patrols; many of them are wide open. Second, shortages are also frequent in core faction worlds. Third, shielded cargo holds are a thing and prevent scans. Four, fast fleets full of hounds aren't difficult to salvage or expensive to buy and they can get into any market without difficulty regardless of the mechanics in place.
This comment is literally "Why are you profiting when you've built your entire session for profit?"
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AcaMetis

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2021, 04:31:43 AM »

One question I have for the ideas making the black markets less of a commodities dump: How will that translate to selling exploration loot? If I have to visit dozens of ports or eat 30% tariffs just to dump off the 25K ore I find at times I'd be far more tempted to just ditch the entire load in space and move on. I'd certainly never be tempted to spend 500 supplies to put 15K ore worth of cargo pods into a stable orbit, that eats into my profits enough as is. Frankly the only reason I ever bother making that round trip as is is because I've got a fleet that can carry 20K cargo, so it only takes one round trip to grab everything. But I imagine not everyone wants to fly around with ten (soon to be fifteen) s-modded Atlas ships...
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Megas

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Re: Trade is brokenly unbalanced
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2021, 05:27:41 AM »

How to fix trade:  Make bounties and missions rewarding enough so that they are worth the risk.  As they are, they pay so little that only the stupid (or insanely powerful) would do them.  Supplies and fuel are consumed, and losing a ship eats more than the payoff.

It costs about a half million or more to restore a battleship.  (Buying or building a new ship is not good enough now with s-mods.)  Think if an NPC bounty hunter with an endgame fleet smashed into an enemy bounty.  He would lose so many ships that he would be ruined, and the bounty pay would be woefully insufficient to replace his losses.  He would be stupid to chase a bounty (if he was more than mere bits).

Something like a mundane warehouse raid for 50k.  Heh, easy-peasy... until a revenge fleet of 200k bounty strength hunts your fleet persistently and catches up much later after player forgot about doing the raid.

Then there were posts about missions raiding Chicomoztoc that needs 1600 marines to do it, for only 50k credits.  I would not be surprised if the game sent an endgame revenge fleet after the player if he was foolish enough to accept and complete the quest.  Nevermind the cost of replacing those marines.

Then there are those those FedEx quests that require the player to go out of his way to transport cheap commodities for less profit than what the player can do on his own.

Finally, base bounties.  50k to attack something significantly stronger than a named fleet bounty of 50k.  It is more profitable to raid for supplies and fuel, leave it, come back months later to steal more supplies and fuel.

Endgame bounties should be paying close to a million credits (if not more), not 300k!  If player is risking costly combat, mission rewards need to be much more rewarding.  Enough to pay for expected losses (an NPC would take) and more for profit.

P.S.  If revenge fleets are common after warehouse raids, those fleets should be considered a named bounty and the mission pay should include both the revenge fleet and the raid itself (which should be more than 50k if player needs more than a thousand marines to do).

It is bad enough that named bounties do not pay enough, but killing a revenge fleet that does not leave you alone pays nothing!  Now I avoid raid missions like the plague.

Oh, and if they know that you did the raid to send a revenge fleet, then the faction should go insta-hostile at you because they know you did it, regardless of transponder status.  Revenge fleets make no sense if player stealth raided the place and they do not know who did it.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 05:51:55 AM by Megas »
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