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Author Topic: Is the Industry tree dead?  (Read 10832 times)

KDR_11k

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2021, 02:25:30 PM »

Ah, okay.  I1R feels very guilty on this!  Up to 5 DP for big bonuses for a civilian that is militarized and gets one of the new hullmods.  What a ripoff!

That's L1R you're thinking of, I believe? I'm still trying to come up with some sort of gimmick build using vulcans and the extra range from escort package but for some reason I thought all those combat freighters were civilian hulled.
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Megas

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2021, 02:27:22 PM »

Yes, Leadership 1 R.
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Amoebka

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2021, 02:28:56 PM »

The purpose of L1R is fielding 3 Kites (A) with omega weapons. Better stats than wolves for 2 DP!  ;D
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Razor Feather

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2021, 03:30:35 PM »

I frankly fail to see where this change from "Skills that improved salvage ability and resilience" to "random stuff" is supposedly coming from.

It lost the reduced CR loss to hyperspace storms, and the bonus rare resource finds completely, I can see that. It also lost the dmod maintenance cost reduction stuff, and the dmod impact reduction stuff, but gained overall maintenance cost reduction and two very powerful tools for handling dmods. The other stuff, like extra resources from salvage, extra fuel, extra ship recovery, etc. is all there. It even gained aspects of other trees that I think fit better with it than their old homes, like fuel usage reduction from tech, and the guaranteed recoverability feature of leadership, in an admittedly roundabout way.

Also I think people are generally underselling just how strong field repairs can be. Make sure all of your officers have one of the industry skills, and throw bulkheads on your non-officered ships, and suddenly all losing ships in battle costs you is some crew and supplies. You always get them back, and when you do they only get 1 dmod or so on average, which simply falls off after awhile. At least for me its made me feel much more comfortable with not save scumming to avert losses.

Further, the changes to fleet cap make salvaging ships as a way to grow and improve the fleet, and thus a "salvage playstyle", much more feasible. You no longer need to intentionally stay below the thirty ship cap just so you actually have a chance of something useful dropping from a fight. If you already have 30 ships, you can still take your pick and then eat a pretty modest supply penalty until you can drop the excess off somewhere and reorganize.

The tree still has issues sure, like the choice between saving fuel and saving supplies being kind of underwhelming due to the similarity in end goal, letting the fleet stay out longer and for cheaper. Derelict contingent is pretty wonky and overtuned, and likely needs to be reworked fairly heavily. The colony skills aren't very good in the face of alpha core use as well, though this isn't exactly a new problem for them. The tree also doesn't scale quite as well as before due to the implementation of softcaps, but that is ultimately just a number tuning sort of thing.

In my own game where I focused industry out the gate as I had in .91 and generally played with a heavy focus on salvage and exploration, it felt... largely the same, except I didn't need to worry about dmods, so net positive. I didn't run a commission or prioritize bounties or anything, just gathered up exploration missions and went out to do my thing, coming back to the core worlds every third of a cycle or so to pick up new missions, stock up on fuel, and sell off anything particularly shiny. Fuel was more of a limiter than before without the relevant skill, but not by a whole lot and I usually had other reasons to head back to civilized areas by then anyway.
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ChaseBears

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2021, 06:01:09 PM »

I frankly fail to see where this change from "Skills that improved salvage ability and resilience" to "random stuff" is supposedly coming from.

It lost the reduced CR loss to hyperspace storms, and the bonus rare resource finds completely, I can see that. It also lost the dmod maintenance cost reduction stuff, and the dmod impact reduction stuff, but gained overall maintenance cost reduction and two very powerful tools for handling dmods. The other stuff, like extra resources from salvage, extra fuel, extra ship recovery, etc. is all there. It even gained aspects of other trees that I think fit better with it than their old homes, like fuel usage reduction from tech, and the guaranteed recoverability feature of leadership, in an admittedly roundabout way.

The original idea behind the industry tree was supporting a playstyle of being able to cope with losses and otherwise focusing on spamming lower-quality ships as opposed to being extremely loss-sensitive as was the general playstyle at the time.   The new industry tree has pretty much abandoned that and partly as a result has kind of lost its theme, with Field Repairs explicitly being for people who don't want to deal with D-mods at all and Derelict Contingent turning d-mod ships into super ships rather than having a quantity over quality focus.

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If I were creating the world I wouldn’t mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o’clock, Day One!

Megas

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2021, 06:18:57 PM »

Just fought the Ziggurat and lost four or five ships (all recovered with d-mods).  Also, recovered the Ziggurat, naturally.  Field Repairs will take ages to remove all of those d-mods.  Oh, and I saw a 1.7+ million price tag to restore the Ziggurat.  (I have a little over 2 million credits, waiting to be spent on more colonies when I find a better place to build them.)  Not paying that bill!

Field Repairs is slow at fixing more than a few casualties.  Better than nothing, but still annoyingly slow.
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Thaago

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2021, 07:03:36 PM »

Field repairs also saved you a total of 8 D mods - bad luck your recovered ships all had D mods on them, I don't know what the exact odds are but I know that with field repairs its a decent chance at pristine recovery. I do miss the D mod mitigation skills though.
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Locklave

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2021, 01:56:28 AM »

Could you define a scavenger type character for us? What do they do, how do they make money, how do they spend their time, etc? You seem to have a way of doing it thats very different than what I do, so I'm curious.

Scavengers focus on survey/scanning missions, and exploration. The idea is to remain neutral, collect blueprints and acquire equipment. Combat is avoided except when blueprints/equipment is on the other side of it, risk adverse generally. Efficiency is everything. Hounds and Cerberus are perfect ships for this kind of build, shields don't matter. Cargo space is key and shielded inventory is a bonus to avoid random scan costing you AI cores when you do head back in stuffed.

Surveying Equipment, Efficiency Overhaul, Militarized Subsystems (for both speed and lower detection range), Augmented Drive Field, Insulated Engine Assembly and High Resolution Sensors are priorities on every ship that can fit them. Moving at max speed, seeing the enemy first, avoiding being seen.

Sneaking around in High danger Remnant systems with a junker fleet where a Mule might be your best fighting ship for those high end blueprints.

Before this build only bled money, now it bleeds supplies/fuel and money. Ya you can cash out with amazing blueprints but without the amazing run times, like 1+ years between core visits, the loss of rare find rares making cash isn't like it was. I'm sure people will post anecdotal " I made 3 million in 1 scav run" but that's not common anymore. Rare tech is way more rare, as are good blueprints as are Pristine nanoforges (which threads have been made about).

"I don't wanna pay skill tax for exploring" I hear in here, lol, well grats the the rare rates are lower for everyone. But those people don't need to feel bad about losing out.

So completely in jest allow me to say "can we remove all the combat bonuses? I feel like they are combat tax for my build and I'm losing out if I do combat without taking them."
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 02:25:29 AM by Locklave »
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Amoebka

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2021, 02:15:48 AM »

Let's imagine for a moment that +rare item skill exists. What will the players do?

1) Pick the skill, spend several cycles looting derelict stations, refund the skill, profit. Not doing this will be terrible because you miss out on extremely valuable non-replenishable resources forever.

2) If the skill is unrefundable, either miss out on extremely valuable non-replenishable resources, or gimp your character in combat forever. What a fun choice to make!
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SCC

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2021, 02:24:54 AM »

"I don't wanna pay skill tax for exploring" I hear in here, lol, well grats the the rare rates are lower for everyone. But those people don't need to feel bad about losing out.
Then Alex should increase how many rare, unique, irreplaceable, impossible to get otherwise items there are to find, if you feel there are too few now. Bounties and AI cores can be farmed, but the number of colony items is determined at the start of the game and salvage increasing rare item drops would be the only thing influencing that number.

Scavengers focus on survey/scanning missions, and exploration. The idea is to remain neutral, collect blueprints and acquire equipment. Combat is avoided except when blueprints/equipment is on the other side of it, risk adverse generally. Efficiency is everything. Hounds and Cerberus are perfect ships for this kind of build, shields don't matter. Cargo space is key and shielded inventory is a bonus to avoid random scan costing you AI cores when you do head back in stuffed.

Surveying Equipment, Efficiency Overhaul, Militarized Subsystems (for both speed and lower detection range), Augmented Drive Field, Insulated Engine Assembly and High Resolution Sensors are priorities on every ship that can fit them. Moving at max speed, seeing the enemy first, avoiding being seen.

Before this build only bled money, now it bleeds supplies/fuel and money. Ya you can cash out with amazing blueprints but without the amazing run times, like 1+ years between core visits, the loss of rare find rares making cash isn't like it was. I'm sure people will post anecdotal " I made 3 million in 1 scav run" but that's not common anymore. Rare tech is way more rare, as are good blueprints as are Pristine nanoforges (which threads have been made about).
I was exploring with a fleet of what I mentioned previously for combat ships, plus 3 Colossuses, 2 Tarsuses, 1 Buffalo (P), 2 Phaetons, 1 Prometheus, 5 Shepherds and 1 Salvage Rig. All my combat ships had solar shields because goddamn storms, all my spreadsheet ships had insulated drives and efficiency overhaul or augmented drive field (I didn't want milsubs eating into my bonuses). My only Industry skills were Salvaging and Reliability Engineering, so no help from that. I surveyed only planets that had satellites in orbit, thus ruins.

I wasn't combat averse and I fought all explorarium defences I found and any pirate, pather, scavenger Remnant that thought he was tough got his fleet salvaged. I didn't explore any red beacon systems yet, though, I plan on bringing the big guns for that. I'm not sneaky at all. Fuel I bought constantly, but supplies hovered around 500-ish and increased slowly over time to 1000-ish.
If you are having such difficulties with "pacifist" exploring, it seems that avoiding combat is now way worse, in comparison to even a modestly optimised fleet that isn't afraid of fighting.

Amoebka

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2021, 02:30:08 AM »

I've been exploring with SO lasher as my only combat ship (so no fighting anything other than derelict defenses) and zero industry skills, and still had to airlock supplies and machinery at some point because I had no cargo space left. Salvage is plentiful for a small fleet. The only rare thing is rare colony items (blueprints are everywhere). This IS frustrating, but having a skill for that isn't the right solution. Make drops more common, at least in dangerous places. Survey ships with defenses and stations in remnant systems should be guaranteed to give something good.
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Locklave

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2021, 02:34:10 AM »

"I don't wanna pay skill tax for exploring" I hear in here, lol, well grats the the rare rates are lower for everyone. But those people don't need to feel bad about losing out.
Then Alex should increase how many rare, unique, irreplaceable, impossible to get otherwise items there are to find, if you feel there are too few now. Bounties and AI cores can be farmed, but the number of colony items is determined at the start of the game and salvage increasing rare item drops would be the only thing influencing that number.

Scavengers focus on survey/scanning missions, and exploration. The idea is to remain neutral, collect blueprints and acquire equipment. Combat is avoided except when blueprints/equipment is on the other side of it, risk adverse generally. Efficiency is everything. Hounds and Cerberus are perfect ships for this kind of build, shields don't matter. Cargo space is key and shielded inventory is a bonus to avoid random scan costing you AI cores when you do head back in stuffed.

Surveying Equipment, Efficiency Overhaul, Militarized Subsystems (for both speed and lower detection range), Augmented Drive Field, Insulated Engine Assembly and High Resolution Sensors are priorities on every ship that can fit them. Moving at max speed, seeing the enemy first, avoiding being seen.

Before this build only bled money, now it bleeds supplies/fuel and money. Ya you can cash out with amazing blueprints but without the amazing run times, like 1+ years between core visits, the loss of rare find rares making cash isn't like it was. I'm sure people will post anecdotal " I made 3 million in 1 scav run" but that's not common anymore. Rare tech is way more rare, as are good blueprints as are Pristine nanoforges (which threads have been made about).
I was exploring with a fleet of what I mentioned previously for combat ships, plus 3 Colossuses, 2 Tarsuses, 1 Buffalo (P), 2 Phaetons, 1 Prometheus, 5 Shepherds and 1 Salvage Rig. All my combat ships had solar shields because goddamn storms, all my spreadsheet ships had insulated drives and efficiency overhaul or augmented drive field (I didn't want milsubs eating into my bonuses). My only Industry skills were Salvaging and Reliability Engineering, so no help from that. I surveyed only planets that had satellites in orbit, thus ruins.

I wasn't combat averse and I fought all explorarium defences I found and any pirate, pather, scavenger Remnant that thought he was tough got his fleet salvaged. I didn't explore any red beacon systems yet, though, I plan on bringing the big guns for that. I'm not sneaky at all. Fuel I bought constantly, but supplies hovered around 500-ish and increased slowly over time to 1000-ish.
If you are having such difficulties with "pacifist" exploring, it seems that avoiding combat is now way worse, in comparison to even a modestly optimised fleet that isn't afraid of fighting.

Simple question, what build are you using to do that? Because I find it unlikely that heavy industry tree is involved in that success. Also are you using a commission?

I wish solar shields was a more common blueprint. I never seem to have it on any play.
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SCC

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2021, 02:54:41 AM »

Simple question, what build are you using to do that? Because I find it unlikely that heavy industry tree is involved in that success. Also are you using a commission?
As mentioned previously - C LLLLL, L LLL, T LLLLL, I RR (and that one's just for Reliability Engineering). No commission, I even disabled the galatian stipend. I spent majority of my time bounty hunting and questing until 213, when I switched to exploration.
Story spoilers
The reward at the end of the academy questline is useful for exploration, but my exceptional bad luck meant it was completely useless in a half of the galactic rim. More precisely, the half I have been exploring first, so for 5-6 cycles it had nearly no impact, which is why I didn't mention it.
[close]
I wish solar shields was a more common blueprint. I never seem to have it on any play.
Fighting Remnants without ECCM was pain... Thankfully I finally found it, after 14 cycles.

Locklave

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2021, 01:13:52 PM »

Simple question, what build are you using to do that? Because I find it unlikely that heavy industry tree is involved in that success. Also are you using a commission?
As mentioned previously - C LLLLL, L LLL, T LLLLL, I RR (and that one's just for Reliability Engineering). No commission, I even disabled the galatian stipend. I spent majority of my time bounty hunting and questing until 213, when I switched to exploration.
Story spoilers
The reward at the end of the academy questline is useful for exploration, but my exceptional bad luck meant it was completely useless in a half of the galactic rim. More precisely, the half I have been exploring first, so for 5-6 cycles it had nearly no impact, which is why I didn't mention it.
[close]
I wish solar shields was a more common blueprint. I never seem to have it on any play.
Fighting Remnants without ECCM was pain... Thankfully I finally found it, after 14 cycles.

Sorry I missed the build earlier, teach me to try posting in a rush before heading to work lol. I need to find something that works for me now, I'll give that build a shot.

If you are doing it with the welfare disabled I must say that is in fact very impressive.
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SCC

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Re: Is the Industry tree dead?
« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2021, 02:15:54 PM »

Sorry I missed the build earlier, teach me to try posting in a rush before heading to work lol. I need to find something that works for me now, I'll give that build a shot.

If you are doing it with the welfare disabled I must say that is in fact very impressive.
I think the least invasive advice I can give you is to give a flagship Tempest a go and see how far can it carry you. It should perform pretty well, even if you don't change much else in your playstyle.
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